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#27 Mar 14 2014 at 1:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
That isn't "active" mitigation in any meaningful way. It's offensive actions giving a defensive return. That's very different. I get why they want players to think of it as active mitigation, but it isn't.
Shades of grey...

It certainly wasn't anything like TERA where you see the BAM's eyes flash and you click your dodge or raise your shield before the hit lands (Lancer there is something I like as a good example of some nice active mitigation), but I didn't think it was all bad. Then again, I didn't play tanky stuff much this time around, so don't listen to me... Smiley: um

Edited, Mar 14th 2014 12:04pm by someproteinguy
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#28 Mar 14 2014 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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It's not, really shades of grey.

The game uses a probability table to determine damage, and all defensive abilities fall under that probability table to determine their use.

Once you're hit capped, all offensive actions are guaranteed a return. Attacks might be glancing (I'm assuming that still exists), regular hits, or crits. But you're guaranteed a return, and raising your crit has a big effect on raising that return (and in relation, raising the base attack value has a larger impact as your crit gets higher).

Defensive actions have the opposite effect. When I hit "attack 1," if I'm hit capped, it will have a tangible effect, meaning the boss' health goes down. But when I hit "defensive cd 1" the game is different. If it's a mitigation effect, the window for it to take effect is reduced with each additional % in avoidance. I mean, if your avoidance is at 50%, you now have a 50% chance that you'll see a return on your defensive ability. And defensive abilities are already acting on a percentage basis (usually), so you typically see a smaller scaling mechanism than with something like an offensive action. Why? Because there's no "normal effect" or "crit effect." You just have that one, linear return.


I mean, it's cool that they're tying offensive stats in to have defensive properties. I'm all for that. Not a huge fan of eliminating defensive stats, but they forced their own hand there when they eliminated threat.

But the problems with stat scaling have literally nothing to do with the stats and everything to do with the systems.
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#29 Mar 14 2014 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
You're reading into that something I didn't say. The vast majority of a tanks time is threatbuilding actions. They aren't concerned about building threat, but they're threatbuilding actions. They're actions that are offensive in nature and largely have little to do with their actual role outside of building threat (regardless of if that threat is valuable or not).


You say the vast majority of the time is threatbuilding actions, but that's putting a bad label on it. Yeah, they build threat, but by that definition a DPS and a Healer are both spending the "vast majority of their time" with "threatbuilding actions." What a tank is actually doing is building resources so that they can use the defensive abilities, as the Active Mitigation model dictates. A Prot pally isn't using crusader strike for the shiggles because he has nothing better to do. A Prot pally is using crusader strike because using it allows him to take less damage by way of giving him holy power.

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And it doesn't matter, at all, if a stat is dodge or if crit is also dodge. The problem isn't with the stats, the problem is with the hit table.

Getting to use SoR more often is nice. But it's also potentially useless, because you might not see any return from SoR in the period it is active. SoR also gets worse the more geared you get, because the chances of it doing nothing increases. And then it gets worse as your healers get more geared, because we DON'T have a triage healing system, and saving you 25% damage on a hit when the subsequent heal was GOING to be 50% overhealing anyway is useless.


Crit = dodge for a monk and a monk only. The vast majority of the "take less damage on a short cooldown" abilities that the active mitigation model relies on, such as Shield of Righteousness, is pure reduced damage taken. It might be an absorption shield, it might be a flat -%damage, but the monk has a one of the only examples of using crit to dodge more. And it doesn't even make the damage more spikey, because a monk's mastery is a direct counter to spike damage. The point I am getting at is that damage now is less spikey than ever before, and with the soon to be removal of defensive stats, the whole "hit table" thing isn't going to be an issue any more. Tanks will have a very small chance to dodge, parry, or block, and outside that will have to use active mitigation and armor to reduce the damage taken.

Assuming that WoD turns out as Blizzard claims right now, then damage for a tank will be, above all, consistent. A good tank will use his abilities to take much less damage over the course of a fight, and gear will allow this more. A large reason that triage healing didn't work out before was because of how spikey tank damage was. With active mitigation and the removal of defensive stats, that problem is pretty much solved.

Honestly, I don't even know why we're arguing about this. You seem to be saying that the current tank system doesn't allow for proper scaling, but that's why they're changing it - to better allow for proper scaling on the part of the tank and on the part of the healers. They are removing all this avoidance stuff and replacing it with offensive stats, basically completing the switch from the old system to active mitigation that was only half done with Mists. What should happen in WoD is bosses' damage will increase with the tiers, and tank damage reduction will rise with it. A tank will be taking more total damage because her mitigation won't rise as quickly, yes. But ideally the tank will be taking the same amount of damage relative to her health pool across all tiers. This also allows for room for personal skill to come into play - a truly skilled tank will take less damage via the active mitigation model than a tank that doesn't know what she's doing.

The issue you have with this whole healing change seems to be that tank scaling doesn't allow it to happen, that tank scaling inevitably leads to a Lich King like scenario where you are spamming flash heals on the tank constantly or else she's dead. With the removal of avoidance stats, it becomes possible to let a tank have meaningful scaling without reaching that scenario, and thus allowing for the triage healing model to come into play.

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
But the problems with stat scaling have literally nothing to do with the stats and everything to do with the systems.


Which is why they are changing that system! This whole argument seems to stem from the assumption that things in WoD will be exactly as they are now, just with the additional healing changes in place. Not the case. Removal of avoidance stats is huge. It's a gamechanger. It really, really is. I think that it's a large piece of what Cata was missing when they tried this healign change last.

Edited, Mar 14th 2014 4:36pm by IDrownFish
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#30 Mar 14 2014 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Item level squish won't hurt either (they're still going ahead with that right?)


Yeah, they're still doing the item squish. It's looking like post-squish will end up somewhere around late WotLK/early Cata at level 90, which means that we're probably going to see Cata-like numbers for the duration of the expansion. This is going off of the Blizzcon playable demo, though, so I'd imagine that has changed somewhat since.
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#31 Mar 14 2014 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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Lyrailis wrote:
Another reason 5mans sucked, is they wanted to get "MOAR CC!" but yet they forgot... "Whoops, only certain classes can CC certain mobtypes and most dungeons are done through the LFD which is entirely random which classes you get".

So you'd get groups that cannot CC the mobtypes in the dungeon.

Then people go "have someone off tank one!"

Yeah, like a Frost DK (one of the first go-to examples when people say that) is going to somehow "tank" a mob or two that is chewing the real tank up without blowing half of the healer's mana, lol.

He could go Blood, but then what if he has Unholy as his alt spec? What if he is DW and has no 2H weapons? etc etc.


The Golden Age of my Bearcat Druid.

Sigh... good times.
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#32 Mar 14 2014 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
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Fishy, the problem was never with tank stats. Ever. That's never once been where the balance issue with damage scaling has been. Tank stats have had problems with regards to cross-tank balance, letting one tank outperform other classes on an encounter, but they've NEVER been the problem with regards to damage levels from tier to tier.

The problem has always been the fact that healers and tanks don't scale the same way. Largely because tanks aren't designed around scaling.

NOTHING I can find about WoD suggests that's changing. Maybe google is just failing me; I confess I didn't try THAT hard to find info. But I assume some kind of dev post about tanking changes wouldn't be buried.

Removal of defensive stats to favor a more active play style with regards to managing your defenses is nice with regards to actual play. But I can't find anything to suggest it's doing anything to actually address the problem of unbalanced scaling.

Why?

Because the problem with unbalanced scaling is the fact that the overwhelming number of defensive abilities in the game are percentages, not stat-scaling. Icebound Fortitude is just as effective on a newbie tank as it is on a geared one (well, technically, the impact is much greater on the newbie tank, but since the geared tank has higher avoidance and health we'll call it even).

So unless they're actually implementing stat-based defense scaling in a way that represents a (literal) complete revamp of how every single tank in the game functions, far and above the "removal" (meaning, "standardization of") defensive stats, the actual issue of damage scaling is completely irrelevant. And maybe they are doing this, but I can't find a single source that says they are.

The plus side is that self-healing mechanics will automatically be more valuable (read, not incredibly useless in most situations) in a triage environment. Most of the ones I can think of are still percentage based heals, but that's a much easier tweak to balance than % based mitigation abilities, which will need fundamentally new formulas and systems.

To be blunt, if they actually intend to completely rework tanking to the degree that they're implementing stat-based mitigation scaling in addition to triage healing and other changes, my faith that they'll be successful is literally <1%. WoW has a VERY bad track record of making large scale comprehensive change all at once, particularly at the start of expansions.

Though I suppose it's possible that they're using the stat crunch to make every class scale linearly with gear. I seriously doubt it, but it's possible. It would certainly make balance easier.
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#33 Mar 14 2014 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
The problem has always been the fact that healers and tanks don't scale the same way. Largely because tanks aren't designed around scaling.


And they are trying to make tanks more about scaling with the itemization changes! So what's the issue?

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Because the problem with unbalanced scaling is the fact that the overwhelming number of defensive abilities in the game are percentages, not stat-scaling. Icebound Fortitude is just as effective on a newbie tank as it is on a geared one (well, technically, the impact is much greater on the newbie tank, but since the geared tank has higher avoidance and health we'll call it even).

So unless they're actually implementing stat-based defense scaling in a way that represents a (literal) complete revamp of how every single tank in the game functions, far and above the "removal" (meaning, "standardization of") defensive stats, the actual issue of damage scaling is completely irrelevant. And maybe they are doing this, but I can't find a single source that says they are.


First off, even if "overwhelming number of defensive abilities in the game are percentages, not stat-scaling," why is that an issue at all? So the Icebound Fortitude is just as good for the fresh 100 tank in quest greens as it is for the full BiS Mythic geared tank. I don't see why that is a problem. Maybe I'm dense. So please, spell it out for me why it's bad that a spell with very minor uptime that is meant for emergencies or strategic mitigation of massive incoming damage (like a dragon breathing) has %-based mitigation that is just as effective for the fresh 100 quest geared tank as it is for the Mythic BiS tank.

Let me get this straight. The problem you have with this new healing model is that you don't believe that this new model can be pulled off with the way tanks and healers scale, right? You claim that healers scale exponentially, and tanks don't. Well healers scaling exponentially is being changed. Now the target's health is going to be scaling just as much as the healers' heals are, and the healers' heals are going to be scaling less. The ideal is that for any given tier, a spell will heal the same percentage of the target's health as it did in previous tiers of content. This lets them get away form the "heal NOW or die" issue they've hit in the past. Add in smoother tank damage and I see this new model as something that can work well. Really well, in fact.

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
The plus side is that self-healing mechanics will automatically be more valuable (read, not incredibly useless in most situations) in a triage environment. Most of the ones I can think of are still percentage based heals, but that's a much easier tweak to balance than % based mitigation abilities, which will need fundamentally new formulas and systems.


As an aside, self healing mechanics used by tanks today are extremely valuable, and frequently used. A paladin's Word of Glory is a huge portion of their effective health, as is a DK's Death Strike and a Brewmaster's Healing Sphere and Chi talents. Self healing is already "not incredibly useless in most situations." I can link raid logs for evidence, if you would like to see it.
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#34 Mar 14 2014 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So the Icebound Fortitude is just as good for the fresh 100 tank in quest greens as it is for the full BiS Mythic geared tank. I don't see why that is a problem. Maybe I'm dense. So please, spell it out for me why it's bad that a spell with very minor uptime that is meant for emergencies or strategic mitigation of massive incoming damage (like a dragon breathing) has %-based mitigation that is just as effective for the fresh 100 quest geared tank as it is for the Mythic BiS tank.


It's a problem because healers don't scale that way. Healers gain higher output and resource regen as the expansion progresses, which changes the actual way their class functions, and drastically alters the level of damage they can heal through at a rate much higher than the rate tank effective health and avoidance stats inflate.

The result is that bosses end up tuned increasingly towards the "burst to death" point. Under the current healing system, that's largely been okay, because we don't have triage healing. Your healers are expected to keep your tank at full, because a string of unavoided hits WILL bring him down. And bosses are tuned to their healing capability, so things feel the same for healers.

But remember, this is okay SPECIFICALLY because we're playing a game where healers keep people, most notably tanks, topped off. Because they get burst down quickly otherwise.

When we move to a triage system, that system stops being okay completely. You can't tune to healer output in the same way, because tank healing is no longer a game of overhealing. Now it's a game of mana management versus survivability.

Under that system, damage levels that scale with healers, not with tanks, creates a system that is functionally identical to early Cataclysm healing. Healers are now forced to use an overhealing model, to keep burst from bringing tanks down, in a model where they were supposed to be relying on playing the health bar game. And it just doesn't work.

Let me put it this way:

Joe is a tank, and he has 100 effective health and 25% avoidance. The boss hits Joe for 30 damage. It takes Joe 4 hits to go down, though there's a good chance it would take 5.

Sally, the healer, has her healing balanced around that 30 damage number. For simplicity's sake, let's just say she heals 30 hps.

Not lets jump forward a patch.

Now, Joe the tank has 120 effective health and 30% avoidance. But Sally now has 45 hps as a combined result of her increased mana regen and output stats. So now the boss needs 45 dps to deal with it. Now, Joe can only survive 3 hits, and his chances to extend that to 4 aren't as good as his chance to extend 4 to 5 were.

Joe's cooldowns and such are just as effective as a percentage of his effective health, but they are now LESS effective as a relation of his effective health to boss damage.

This has been a pretty consistent "problem" with tank scaling forever. Except that it wasn't a problem, really, because bosses were being balanced around healers, not around tanks, and the shrinking window of tank survivability was less of an issue because of dedicated tank healers. Since healing was so heavily based around overhealing in the first place, tank's time-to-die was irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the tank goes down in 4 unhealed hits vs 5 if you're keeping him overhealed anyway.

But when you eliminate that overhealing factor, when you make healer mana an issue and expect tanks to not be sitting at full health, shrinking time to die suddenly matters in a way it never really did under an overhealing model. That HEAVILY changes the game.

If a healer is expected to only keep a tank at 75% health, then it's a big problem. Because as the expansion progresses, boss hits take a bigger and bigger percentage of tank health away (not just larger numbers proportional to tank health), which means that healers are forced out of triage healing and back to the burst model...

...Except that they're completely different. Which is how you end up with Cata's healing mess.
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#35 Mar 14 2014 at 8:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
As an aside, self healing mechanics used by tanks today are extremely valuable, and frequently used. A paladin's Word of Glory is a huge portion of their effective health, as is a DK's Death Strike and a Brewmaster's Healing Sphere and Chi talents. Self healing is already "not incredibly useless in most situations." I can link raid logs for evidence, if you would like to see it.


Effective health != survivability with regards to self-healing.

Self-healing has always logged well. Even in Wrath. Bloodworms logged as one of the most effective talents for effective health. That was far from the case.

When tanks aren't getting capped off, when self-healing isn't being translated into overhealing, it's extremely useful for effective health.

But when your tanks ARE getting capped off, when overhealing is the norm, then no. Not at all. Low-level, constant self-healing abilities CAN be useful, but in very specific circumstances. Notably when the tank gets hit with such burst that the self-heal actually does increase their health past the point where their TTD goes up by another swing period (the "active mitigation" thingy). But you really shouldn't be riding so close to a wipe, and if you are, for the love of god use your CDs.

The other case scenario is when you've taken enough damage to be low enough the healers' next heals don't overheal, so you actually see a return on it. But that's also such an uncommon scenario (or, again, "was") that I'm still willing to call passive, low self-healing numbers as relatively useless. I've always heavily preferred systems that give more firm mitigation/avoidance.

It's absolutely possible that's the case nowadays in MoP raiding. I'm GUESSING it isn't, because that's triage healing. And why are we having a discussion about the implementation of triage healing if triage healing is already in the game.
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#36 Mar 15 2014 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
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I dislike the Russian roulette style boss encounters. The ones where you have to pop cooldowns, when Deadly Boss Mod tells you to, or you risk dying. Those kinds of encounters promote addon dependency. They also **** up the math because of how big an impact RNG has on the outcome. They should change it to a war of attrition where the tank's job is to manage cooldowns so that healers don't run out of mana halfway through the fight. The wipe should come from healers running low on mana, not from healers disconnecting a cast and the tank getting two-shot.
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