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Threat hotfix - The Return of Dual-wield?Follow

#1 Aug 23 2011 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
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Since Blizzard buffed our threat to levels where, according to them, TPS should no longer be an issue, I'm just wondering how many are going to go dual-wield for style. I realize that two-handed is still better overall, but I've seen a lot of dual-wield Death Knights tanking and I'm curious if anyone prefers that style.

Personally, I'm tempted to go dual-wield, primarily because my two-handed weapon is ilvl 316 while my one-handed weapons are ilvl 353. Going to try it out and see how many times I can get vote-kicked today.
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#2 Aug 23 2011 at 8:55 PM Rating: Default
i may on my DK would have to respec again..... really don't see the benifit of it other then MORE dodge and parry but less threat and healing from mastery
#3 Aug 23 2011 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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How would it reduce healing?

In any case, I wouldn't be willing to give up the tank's dps just because he wants to be unique. Do tanks put out a ton of damage? No. But it's not pitiful either, and changing to DW would be a pretty huge cut to it. I wouldn't accept a dps player dropping 1-3k+ dps just to be unique and I won't make that allowance for a tank either.

This is, of course, assuming we are talking about dungeon runs. And that means I'm also assuming that you are in a group that isn't so geared that the extra damage would actually make a difference.
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#4 Aug 24 2011 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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My experiences tell me that Death & Decay is the reason you don't pull aggro on trash packs and on bosses it really, really doesn't matter anymore. Yeah, dual-wield is inefficient, but I'm curious how many prefer it to swinging a two-handed.

As for damage output, Death Knights have a pretty high damage output for tanks. I ran a SFK yesterday on my Shaman and our tank, a Death Knight, was pushing 20k DPS average on the run. 15k on bosses, 25k on trash. That's more than my DPS geared Druid can push out (in Bear Form, ed.).

Edited, Aug 24th 2011 3:33pm by Mazra
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#5 Aug 24 2011 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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I kinda like it the way it is, even though I'm having my days...

I'm having tiny 1-hand weapons to tank with on warrior and pally. I'm having something in between (when looking at attack speed) with my bear druid. So tanking with a big huge and slow 2-hand on the DK seems just natural.

Just not happy about the sounds. Really lacks the intensity compared to my other tanks. Just a "SWOOSH" here and there... boooring. Dual-wielding is considerably more entertaining in that regard.
#6 Aug 24 2011 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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Just not happy about the sounds. Really lacks the intensity compared to my other tanks. Just a "SWOOSH" here and there... boooring. Dual-wielding is considerably more entertaining in that regard.


See, the idea of a DK using some wimpy one-handers just seems boring to me. They should be cleaving things in half with massive runeblades.
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#7 Aug 24 2011 at 9:06 PM Rating: Default
death strike......
#8 Aug 24 2011 at 9:08 PM Rating: Good
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DS heals based on your damage taken in the past 5 seconds, not the damage you do. You would be healed the same amount with a one handed weapon as with a 2.
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#9 Aug 25 2011 at 1:06 AM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
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Just not happy about the sounds. Really lacks the intensity compared to my other tanks. Just a "SWOOSH" here and there... boooring. Dual-wielding is considerably more entertaining in that regard.


See, the idea of a DK using some wimpy one-handers just seems boring to me. They should be cleaving things in half with massive runeblades.


Yes, but what's bothering me is that it should also SOUND like they were doing just that. It does when you play an Arms warrior with sword or axe. If you're tanking with a shield, you're getting this wonderful "CLONK" feedback when you block. With a DK it doesn't quite feel like standing right in the middle of the action.
#10 Aug 25 2011 at 1:27 AM Rating: Good
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Dual wield tanking is entirely weapon set up dependent.

If you have better 1H weapons and get better overall tank stats from them then your 2H weapon then DW, if not use the 2Her.

You can usually get better stats from a 2H weapon but do math and figure it out.

MATH
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#11 Aug 25 2011 at 7:06 AM Rating: Good
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MATH IS FOR SISSIES, HORSE! SISSIES! ARE YOU A SISSY?! Smiley: mad

RRRRRAAAAAAGH!
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#12 Aug 25 2011 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
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DS heals based on your damage taken in the past 5 seconds, not the damage you do. You would be healed the same amount with a one handed weapon as with a 2.


Because I like semantics.....

If you happen to take more damage using DW than 2H, DS would heal for more if you used DW.
#13 Aug 25 2011 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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That is true, but it struck me that this discussion was based around the idea of using dps one-handers.

If you are using tanking one-handers, I suppose that your average DS returns might be lower.

But DS also has a cap of 20%, no? So it's still fully possible that DS will heal for the exact same amount.
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#14 Aug 25 2011 at 10:39 PM Rating: Good
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DW tank weapons will likely net you slightly higher avoidance but less Str, Stam and Mastery. This is assuming same iLvl weapons of course.

Also I don't know how you would take more damage by DWing. Your main loss, outside of the above, would be in threat, DPS and utility talents.
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#15 Aug 25 2011 at 11:13 PM Rating: Good
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You'd take less damage, from slightly higher avoidance, which would in theory make your average DS returns lower. If mastery is lower as well, that make it not worth it (even assuming lost dps isn't a problem) from a survivability perspective.

Of course, if you'd be getting 20% heals regardless, then np. Of course, you'd still have lower mastery, so smaller shields...

...

Bah, at the end of the day the lost dps is easily a deal breaker for me. I wouldn't condone anyone doing it. Would I kick that tank (at least from an easier dungeon)? Probably not, if they weren't useless. But I'd be seriously irritated that they were happily reducing their dps intentionally.
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#16 Aug 25 2011 at 11:22 PM Rating: Good
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If had two 1H weapons a tier over my 2Her I'd switch, otherwise aint gonna happen.
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#17 Aug 26 2011 at 4:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Using two Mandibles would get you 58 less Strength, 78 less stamina, 66 less Mastery, and 276 less haste, but you would gain 252 Dodge rating over a Skullsteal Greataxe. It doesn't quite seem worth it to me, but I'd have to see just how much actual % dodge you get from 252 rating after DR.
#18 Aug 26 2011 at 6:05 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Would I kick that tank (at least from an easier dungeon)? Probably not, if they weren't useless.


Hadn't thought about the lack of stats and I can see why min/maxers wouldn't want to do this. From a casual's point of view, though, and looking strictly at 5-mans, I don't see the harm. If the group wipes then it's likely not due to the tank dual-wielding, but rather because he didn't use enough AOE. Death & Decay is more than enough to hold aggro on everything, assuming the DPS doesn't use insane AOE to begin with, but in that case a two-hander won't save the day either.

I had the fortune of running three dungeons in a row where the tank was a Death Knight. None of them were dual-wielding, all of them were failing at life to a degree where I, on my Shaman, ended up tanking adds with my elemental, wolves and Shamanistic Rage to prevent a wipe.

My only concern would be the hit cap as I believe it's higher for dual-wielders (unless points are spent in Frost). Missed Death Strikes would result in a loss of self-healing and thus survivability. When my Death Knight tanks, she is responsible for roughly 30% of all healing taken (overhealing not included), so I imagine that would be bad.

In my Death Knight's case, her two-handed weapon was ilvl 316 and she went dual-wield with the 353 maces, which is probably a DPS upgrade even when dual-wielding.
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#19 Aug 26 2011 at 10:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yellow hit cap is always 8% for raids. DW or not.
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#20 Aug 26 2011 at 11:04 PM Rating: Good
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Dual Wield Tanking... Just say "NO!"
#21 Aug 27 2011 at 6:54 AM Rating: Good
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Horsemouth wrote:
Yellow hit cap is always 8% for raids. DW or not.


How come dual-wield talent trees always include a +hit% talent? Smiley: confused
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#22 Aug 27 2011 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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Because your white cap is still 27%. Only specials are 8. Since auto-attack is usually in the top 3 sources of damage, that's significant.
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#23 Aug 28 2011 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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I see your point.
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