BST Nerf - SpinShark Weighs InFollow

I love it, he combines a perfectly viable complaint AND solution with a scathing troll-blast directed at the targets that actually diserve it.

I love it. XD

Don't feed the...

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This is a half-truth. A dictionary is well and good to look up what words mean, but a straw man is a logical fallacy that requires a little bit more than a one-liner. I prefer Wikipedia's entry, personally, but since we're talking about what's probably the most popular fallacy, you can find your own favorite wherever you like on the interweb.

This is what you did, cherry-picking the most ridiculous arguments from the dumbest people. While you didn't make them, you did present them in a delibrate way.

I hate analogies because they are always imperfect, but you're familiar with RDM, so here's one for you. Imagine if I made a thread like this one, only it was advocating RDM melee. I include a series of "real arguments" like "it sez red MAGE so dont melee u noooob!" that are easily defeatable. While they represent the views of actual idiots, they don't represent the best arguments of anti-meleers in general -- and they are my real opponents.

I don't see how you could misunderstand my viewpoint on the "straw man" subject at this point, because I've made it abundantly clear. So, if you still disagree with my interpretation, my retort will be that we'll have to agree to disagree on this point (just saving both of us some typing).

Your assertion that SE won't deal with RMT because they are afraid of killing the cash cow. This is not the most likely explanation. It's actually pretty out in left field, imo. No, don't tell me: you don't think it's wacky. I know.


It does sound odd, I've seen Serket/Amemet shenanigans like everyone else (sometimes I couldn't tell who did it even when I was there, though... it can get confusing).

But we don't have the whole story. It's easy to fire-and-brimstone MPK'ers when you don't have to deal with the consequences of false positives, but SE doesn't have that luxury if they want to stay in business. I don't know if you've ever played DAoC, but back in the day they had a very, very thorough system of banning cheaters, with a published appeal process, and wouldn't banstick anyone until it was obvious to the point of absurdity that they weren't innocent.

Some might think that's a dumb way to do things, but considering how much time people put into their characters and how "final" a ban is, I think it's appropriate. If I camped NMs on a day-to-day basis, I wouldn't want to get "framed" by some groups of putzes that didn't like me, and have a GM swing the banstick on incomplete information just because it's their word against mine. The RMT people are already willing to TRAIN MOBS AND KILL ME, how much of a stretch is it for someone (well, I guess you'd need to speak English) to abuse a fiercely-enforced TOS to frame/ban people they don't like?

Yes, I agree that the GMs would be able to just show up 15 minutes prior to Serket's pop (assuming that's a known value on the server side, would kinda suck if it's random and they have to camp the whole window) and warn/ban people that don't play nice. I suspect that becomes a manpower issue, though, because there's an asston of potential MPKs at any given time and a limited number of GMs. It's extremely easy to fall through the cracks in that kind of situation.

I don't want to give the impression I think this is a good thing. I think it's stupid. But I also think there's a grain of truth in their excuse.


That you're guilty of some of the same shenangians that you insult people for. It's just an observation, nothing more. Never mind the rest, it went over your head and it's offtopic anyway.

Emphasis mine, this was my point. You accuse people of missing the mark, treating the symptoms, but you fall into the same trap. How much MPK would exist were there not highly contested 24hr NMs, or a secondary market for the items they drop and the gil to buy them? Are you maybe suggesting that there's a certain cut-off point where it's not worth trying? That it's better to settle for stopping MPK and banning offenders, because it's easier than removing the reasons to MPK in the first place?

The "rotten structure of the empire" as you put it is another discussion, but at the same time, it's the heart of this one.

Well, you're exaggerating, but see my anecdote above about DAoC. With MMOs, there's a lot at stake if you lose your character/gear, so the requirements for a ban have to necessarily be high. False positives are unacceptable in this environment.

Can't argue with that. They have a lot of work to do.

Edited, Thu Dec 15 13:47:22 2005 by MargavineLiselle

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oops

Edited, Fri Dec 16 15:45:48 2005 by heapheap

Sounds like venting anger, not much tought behind what you say.
for one, SE can't do **** to someone that MPKs unless they can somehow prove it (chat log: i am gonna MPK you mothaf**ker). i have done it many times to RMTs and not once has a GM said anything to me. now as of far i have heard of only 1 real good way to handle most of the MPK problems and that is to make a system like EQ has. makers of EQ state that they DO NOT have a MPK problem on their game, but silly SE just didn't want to copy them.
well, SE f**ked up again and made it harder for a job to solo (stfu to the people that say bst wasn't ment to solo, because thats what people want to do with it). not everyone want to sit around for days looking for a PT (some people suck at making them so they sit and wait), nor do they have the time to do it as well. BST was the most independant job out and i had plans to become a BST (BST tend to help eachother out more then the rest of the people). well, if SE will not change this new MPK "System" then they should help BST out more by boosting the power of a jug pet as well as give BST reward II (+50% more hp recoved and removes all debuffs) letting a BST hold his pet longer (i would like to see some BST gear giving a call beast your subjobs 2 hour ^^ ::laughs at the crab using benediction::).
i lost a good friend to this update and hope SE will change it before i lose anymore. so just hang in there all you BST and keep ******** to SE (sends flamming bags of dog **** to the door steps of SE) and hope they do something soon.

You’re really a piece of work.

I understand what you’re saying, and I’m saying you’re wrong.

the context/frame/whatever of my thread has nothing to do with whether or not my arguments were straw-men

The only things that determine whether or not an argument is a straw man is whether or not it is a previously existing misrepresented/inaccurate argument, or a completely made-up one designed to be easily refutable.

Again, whether or not my arguments were made in a “void” or in the “frame” of my thread has no bearing on determining if it’s a straw-man.

Who exactly is the one that can’t wrap their brain around a “moderately complex” idea here?

You can call my arguments whatever made-up term you wish to call them according to your “logic,” but straw men they are not.

Also, the crux of this “point” of yours is that I selectively read and chose these arguments, when in reality I didn’t. Are you going to tell me authoritatively that I did something I did not? You may as well; it wouldn’t affect your credibility much anyway.



No, it would be a waste of my time and I would be forced to read a bunch of dipshi[/i]ts' opinions which I do not care about.

If you have better arguments, post them, or discontinue the spewing.

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The difference between us is that I can see the nugget of truth in their excuse.

No, the difference between us is that I have weighed the consequences of a few false positives versus letting MPKers go on their merry way, and came to the conclusion that the positives of actually enforcing your own rules with some inevitable mistakes outweighs unchecked, rampant MPK.

Keep in mind SE has actually banned people, so they will pull out the ban axe on occasion. They just need to do it more often. There’s no reason why RMT griefers are still on the server after consecutive day MPKing people.

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I think it's cute that you still think I was making an argument, or a point for debate.

Very little of this has even been a “debate.” Most of it is just me repeating myself and getting you to say what you mean.

It wasn’t an argument or a “debate” point, but it was still a snide little baseless comment. I just called you on it.

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The same short-term effect

Of course it’s short-term. I even pointed out how I’m aware they’ll likely re-roll their character after a ban. It’s still hard on them and time-consuming to boot. Who knows, maybe if it happens to them enough, they’ll get sick of the time they have to spend leveling up again etc. and move on to greener MMO pastures. Not incredibly likely, but a possibility, and it would just be a bonus anyhow.

Again, RMT itself is near impossible to completely eradicate in these type of games, short of giving everyone infinite money and items which defeats the purpose anyway.

SE just has to do something within their means to stop the breaking of their “no MPK” rule, not just say “oh well, we can’t completely eliminate these people, so we’ll just let them MPK to their heart’s content I guess!”

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Yes it is asinine. Unfortunately, it's also necessary.

A standard of proof is necessary, yes. But, a big chunk of absurdity presently residing in SE’s SOP needs to be cut out, and streamlined to be effective. The current incarnation is a far cry from this.



[i]Edited, Fri Dec 16 22:27:26 2005 by SpinShark

"I understand what you’re saying, and I’m saying you’re wrong."

You're right of course, I can't know what went on in your head. So, if you aren't guilty of deliberate selective reading, option B is that you're a fool. I'll admit I didn't think this was the case, but you're more than welcome to use it.

Better than te ones you lampooned in the OP? I already did. Scroll up, I'm gettin' tired of repeating myself.

It's always one or the other with you, isn't it? I'm glad you're not in charge of CS.

It's not a matter of getting sick of it, it's a matter of profit. As long as it's profitable to sell gil/items to people, they will continue to do it. It might drive up the price of gil, if even that.

I'd like to hear how. With the understanding that they won't accept banning innocents, nothing less than being 100% sure will work. That probably means that a GM is going to have to see it happen, someone goofs up and talks about it in-game, or they design a magic tool that can tell the difference between a normal train and an MPK.

If only that's what it was.

Yes, that you can't be bothered to research a topic you're claiming to be the voice of clarity on, and that if the counter-arguments made don't jump right into your lap, then they don't exist. My response to this is that you're either a selective reader (if it was delibrate), or a fool (if it was accidental). You're the only one who knows what's going on in your head, so it's your pick.

Don't you already have an opinion on the worthlessness of the karma system? Also, you calling me a troll is very funny.

I made my points already. You brushed them off or ignored that they existed, and the same thing will happen again. I can already see the nature of the reply forming in your head as you read this, whether you post it or not. My posts are too dense to make any sense of, I'm hiding behind fancy words, you're the smartest person ever, add a few well-polished insults to the mix, maybe some "stomp feet and threaten to leave" pepper, bake for 15 minutes, serve.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about, you'll just latch on to the bit that you can most easily trash, and be done with it. In this case, it was running with "short term", and forgetting the rest.

Anyway, I'll take a page out of your playbook: I'm getting bored, so if you don't have anything new to say, I'll let it stand (no sense repeating myself).