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Suggestions for changing the MPK systemFollow

#27 Nov 03 2005 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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3,139 posts
#1 Allow the GM's (or should I say encourage) to actually do something when an MPK occurs. Currently, someone reports an MPK, the GM's arrive 45 minutes later, with no way to tell if what the person says is correct or not. If the MPK'er happened to be stupid enough to say in their log that they MPK'ed someone, then it would be easy, but unfortunatly this is hardly the case. I dont know how you would go about implementing this, as i'm sure its not possible to have GM's at every single pop spot for every single NM in the game (NM's are generally where you see the most MPK'ing).

#2 Make bind different, by not allowing the mob to attack anyone in range regardless of hate.

#3 Make a mob that has been claimed not go unclaimed unless EVERYONE in the party/alliance disengages from it. If it turns yellow, then others can steal it, which is unfair, and often results in MPK.

#4 PRevent mobs that have been claimed by anyone outside of the party from linking with any mobs a party has claimed. Ex: John Doe is fighting raptors in kuftal, and billy bob brings a raptor and warps out right next to john doe's. Make billy bobs raptor not link with john doe's somehow (maybe a timer that gives the mob enough time to head back to its home, and be far enough away before it links with a CLAIMED mob). I still think mobs should link, but not if it has recently been claimed by anyone outside of the party/alliance.

As for your suggestions:

Ahkore
Square Enix Community Representative wrote:
Quote:
"Make it so monsters trained to the zone do not aggro until they've walked back to their original starting point!"


I personally think thats an awful idea (no offense intended). This just opens the door for people to be lazy. I can hear it now john doe and his party are in the rumble crawler room, and they get an add. John says zone it, the THF in the party zones it, along wiht every crawler from there to the zone, and now you have 78 crawlers wandering back to their homes, but no one in the entire zone has to worry about agro. This would make garrisons a lot easier, just have a friend zone all the mobs, and then you could kite all day long, with no worry of a link. Same goes for dangerous NM camps (Vrtra for example), you could just have one person zone all the mobs, and then zone back in, pass the mobs, and wait for them to get close again, and then rezone them. I just think it will cause more problems then solutions.

Ahkore
Square Enix Community Representative wrote:
Quote:
"AoE damage should not affect players in other parties not engaged in the battle with the monster that initiated the AoE attack!"


For EXP mobs, I agree with this completly. Nothing is more annoying then haveing a party camp right on top of you, and their mob's AoE interfearing wiht your exp. But what about Absolute Virtue (because this is a hot topic today). IF the AoE didnt affect anyone not in the alliance, then the difficulty of this NM would be much less. I would assume it is as difficult as it is for a reason. Also if NM's AoE didnt hit everyone in range, you would have entire LS's trying to lag other LS's out by getting too close, and getting in the way of the LS fighting the NM.


I am very glad to see SE takeing this issue seriously. Now if they would just consider the Gil seller issue as seriously, i think the player base would be extremly happy.
#28 Nov 03 2005 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Greetings everyone, my name is Ahkore and I'm a representative of Square Enix!


Smiley: jawdrop

Way to go SE! It's about time we were able to submit direct feedback and actually receive a response! I hope this is just the first of many topics to come that you will poll for feedback on. You have no idea how much this will improve player moral and satisfaction.

Suggestions regarding MPK:

Suggestion: Remove the ability for a monster to link to a monster that a different party is currently fighting. That way no one can grab a Lizard in the Dunes, Bind it next to a party already fighting a Lizard, and then log/zone to shift hate onto the party from a link.

Suggestion: If a party is fighting something at a zone line for example, and someone drags another monster there to MPK...make the second monster have a "aggro delay" so that the party has a chance to move out of the way.

Suggestion: Level dependant linking. If a level 75 (for example) trains a Goblin through the Dunes next to a Level 15 party fighting the same Monster type, make the monster the party is fighting actually link onto the level 75 rather than the other way around. This way the MPKer is actually attacked by additional mobs, rather than the other way around. Think of it as a "imminent threat" model...the 75 is threatening his Goblin brother more than the party is threatening him. If the 75 zones, only the monster that the party was fighting returns...it does not link onto the other monsters.

Parties won't mind this because the 75 cannot attack the link, therefor they don't lose XP. This is an extreme deterant for high level players fighting in the same area as low level players.

Suggestion: Farming penalties for areas with an X number of lower level players to reduce competition (which leads to MPK). This will discourage people from farming in places where lower levels are struggling for XP. Basically the drops become more rare the longer the high level player is in the area.

Suggestion: If a monster kills a player not in a party, that monster becomes noticably weakened for a short period of time, also resulting in reduced XP if it's at full health. This way single players cannot pull monsters onto a Party/Alliance, die, and then have the party get murdered by the monster that is at full health.
#29 Nov 03 2005 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Make it so monsters trained to the zone do not aggro until they've walked back to their original starting point!


This is a good idea, but could they move a bit faster back to their original spot too? :P It does slow down game play when theres a train to zone because fewer mobs to exp off of. IE crawlers Nest. Just if SE is going to make this change could they implement that as well?
#30 Nov 03 2005 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
Oh yeah one more off the top of my head:

Suggestion: Please, for the love of God provide a way to check the status of a GM request. Something along the lines of "Your GM call is now #14 in the queue". Currently there is no way to tell when a GM will arrive, or how much longer someone needs to wait.
#31 Nov 03 2005 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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375 posts
Suggestion: Make it possible for GMs to tell when MPKs have taken place without having to actualy be there watching. Having the GM visably show themselves and take offenders away in NM/HNM situations might help too. Far too many seem to think that you can get away with MPK.

And, I wouldn't consider the bst pet suggestion. If that's implimented just a few of us can keep a fairly large area aggro free indefinetly as long as we are high enough to charm the mobs.

One last question. Is this the start of SE interacting with the user base here? Or, just one issue that the developers want our thoughts on.

Edited, Thu Nov 3 15:14:20 2005 by SarrenValBst
#32 Nov 03 2005 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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536 posts
Making mobs not aggro anyone until they reach their home/spawn point is way too flawed. Having problems in Ro'Maeve? Just have a THF aggro and then Flee to the Hall of Gods....everyone can then walk to Hall of Gods now without worry of magic aggro/sneak/etc... Doing an escort quest? Have someone aggro and train, then warp out. Now the NPC for the escort can just run freely, no need to fight anything. However, I do agree that if a mob is not in it's home/spawn/roaming area, it should not be able to link/aggro with a party fighting a mob.
#33 Nov 03 2005 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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2,163 posts
Quote:
One last question. Is this the start of SE interacting with the user base here? Or, just one issue that the developers want our thoughts on.


That is a damn good question. If the answer is yes to the 1st posed question, it will go a long way to instilling trust among the current user base and probably reduce the amount of whiningthat goes on by ALL who are not listened to or frustrated with the way SE handles there requests, either on the phone or in the game.
#34 Nov 03 2005 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
reduce train sizes (to maybe 7) for all monsters above level 10, helps stop MPKing and might help free up some mobs in train-farming areas (like dunes)
#35 Nov 03 2005 at 3:00 PM Rating: Default
Quote:
If someone zones a mob of any kind in a zone, why not have them zone out as if they're going after the character that zoned them. Such as someone brongs a rumble crawler to the zone in the crawler's next, that thing will ling with every crawler on the way to the zone. Now when the player zones, if the mobs still have hate twords them they run out of the zone. The player will end up in Roleberry fields (spelled horribly, I know) and the crawlers just kind of disapear and reaspan a few moments after running out of the zone.

That would stop those roming packs of crawlers from killing everyone that's leveling there.


<um...> <no thanks> then monsters from really high-level areas go to low-level area and create mass chaos

Edited, Thu Nov 3 15:10:33 2005 by aguacero
#36 Nov 03 2005 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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470 posts
First off, nice to have a representative with us.


1. Mob linking is a feature of the game and it would be bad for FFXI if removed. We'll have a much easier time hunting mobs but it doesn't make sense from a more "realistic" view of the game. Takes some of the fun out of the game.

eg. Orc A is poked with an arrow in front of Orc B. Orc B just stares at Orc A while Orc A runs off to get killed.

2. AoE damage is already strange in that some mobs damage everything around and some doesn't. I would think either make it all damage for all mobs or no damage for all mobs will be good.

3. The EQ2 method of no aggro until back in original position is good. While it still doesn't make sense why a bloodthirsty animal like a tiger to chase someone to end up being so homesick that it doesn't care about other characters, it does relieve much of the grief.

4. SE doesn't have that much manpower to station GMs at every flash point.

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5. Suggestion:I think an immunity to aggro in the first 1-2 minutes after zone is good. Prevents problems of instant death from trained mobs right after zone.

6. Suggestion:Released mobs shouldn't aggro until original position reached. It makes sense if you think of them as being disoriented after being tamed.

7. Suggestion:The "go yellow" while in fight problem needs to be solved. Perhaps stop mob from going yellow unless all of attacking alliance is dead.

8. Suggestion:I remember from my days in Ultima Online about the criminal system, where player killers can be reported to the guards in town, and their heads offered for rewards. It made PK, anti-PK, PVP fun. I would think implementing a fix-MPK system that integrates and enhances game play will be better than a simple solution of changing game mechanics to make MPK impossible.
- A similar system can't be integrated in FFXI for obvious reasons though.
- A player-karma system can cause more problems than solutions due to bad-natured people karma-bombing other players for no apparent reason.

8a. Suggestion:Introduce an item in the game (that can be cheaply made, or available from NPC) that "pacifies" non-beastman mobs and make them head to their original spots at their normal walking pace for 1 min or so. Certain mobs or mobs that aggroed under certain situations should be immune to this to prevent misuse.
-> Mobs that aggroed from linking should be immune.
-> A good deal of MPK occurs at gil-seller targetted mobs with lots of non-beastman mobs around.

8b. Suggestion:Introduce an item/spell that gives some sort of "Sanctuary" effect when being worn/cast. Mobs will not aggro to those in area of effect (or person with effect). Yellow aggroed mobs should lose hate quickly within area.
-> In undead areas, a similar spell for perhaps whm will be good. (eg. Turn Undead from D&D)
-> Lasts 1 min or so



--------
My 2 cents worth, hope they are useful.








Edited, Thu Nov 3 15:20:12 2005 by PandyTymora
#37 Nov 03 2005 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
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654 posts
I agree with some previous posters: enforce punitive damages to accounts that are repeatedly reported by GM calls.

Heck, the GM community should keep tabs of the number of times a player has been reported and inflict punishments on an exponential scale, ie: First MPK: 1 day in jail, Second: 2 days, Third: 4 days, Fourth: 8 days, Fifth: 16 days, Sixth: 32 days, etc... The problem would be rid pretty quickly this way.

I've reported MPKs between gil sellers a few times and never saw any action taken, just the "We will investigate the issue bla bla bla". It makes the player community's faith in GM calls falther.
#38 Nov 03 2005 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
Community Relations Representative
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Wow! So many great replies and the thread hasn't even been up for 30 minutes! This will be great, everyone keep it up!

As for a question that asked if this was the start of SE interacting with the player base... that's exactly what my goal is! I'm trying to bridge any gap that exists between our players and the people responsible for making the decisions.

So many replies... Please keep those "Suggestion:" tags so I know exactly where to look when compiling this data!

Thanks, everyone!
#39 Nov 03 2005 at 3:05 PM Rating: Decent
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975 posts
1) Obviously the Bind thing needs to be fixed. I myself have been a victim of this on two occasions (not MPK, just plain unlucky) and really, it sucks a whole lot.

2) How about more entrances/exits into and out of zones? For example, Yhoatar Jungle is one of the best-known locations where people constantly train Goblins to where parties camp, and EXP parties cry MPK. If everyone wasn't all crowded around the same location, less things like this would happen.

3) I'm not a high enough level to take part in a lot of the end-game material yet, but I have seen and heard reports of MPK from competing linkshells trying to get that incredibly expensive drop from an NM. I agree with the above posters that GM's should monitor these spawns more closely, especially those spawns where these things are known to happen frequently. If this is not possible, then these drops need to be obtainable through other means in addition to drops.

4) More instanced fighting/forced spawns! ENM's were a wonderful idea and part of the reason I love the CoP expansion so much. They make it impossible to MPK. Forced spawns should despawn after the spawning party has been wiped.
#40 Nov 03 2005 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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272 posts
Dolmen wrote:
Making mobs not aggro anyone until they reach their home/spawn point is way too flawed. Having problems in Ro'Maeve? Just have a THF aggro and then Flee to the Hall of Gods....everyone can then walk to Hall of Gods now without worry of magic aggro/sneak/etc... Doing an escort quest? Have someone aggro and train, then warp out. Now the NPC for the escort can just run freely, no need to fight anything. However, I do agree that if a mob is not in it's home/spawn/roaming area, it should not be able to link/aggro with a party fighting a mob.


Think this would be solved by having monsters move back to their original positions very quickly. In addition limit the number of links based on relative levels, so you cant empty an area of mobs who would cause you serious issues, but extras wouldn't link noticing that if the group following you catch up you're going to die.
#41 Nov 03 2005 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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10,755 posts
Ahkore wrote:
As for a question that asked if this was the start of SE interacting with the player base... that's exactly what my goal is! I'm trying to bridge any gap that exists between our players and the people responsible for making the decisions.


Oh thank God. You guys are finally figuring it out.

Smiley: clap Serious kudos to you.
#42 Nov 03 2005 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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375 posts
Wow, that was a quick responce. I guess SE really is going to start showing us they are paying attention. A very welcome change.
#43 Nov 03 2005 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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4,148 posts
Ahkore Square Enix Community Representative wrote:

"Make it so monsters trained to the zone do not aggro until they've walked back to their original starting point!" or something along the lines of "AoE damage should not affect players in other parties not engaged in the battle with the monster that initiated the AoE attack!"

These are just a few examples. I'm ready to hear many, many more! It would help for collecting purposes if your suggestions could be clearly marked, i.e. something along the lines of:

"
Suggestion: Released BST pets shouldn't aggro other people!
"


Those plus

Keeping bound mobs from aggroing/linking other mobs till they return to their original position

Should do the trick.

Thank you very much for taking active interest by way of our forums, we really appreciate it!

I am sure everyone else would love it if SE had representatives ask for feedback here more often!

Edited, Thu Nov 3 15:19:06 2005 by Levish
#44 Nov 03 2005 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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4,136 posts
At the top of my list is probably the least succesful for MPK, but one of the most absurd that it's possible..

Suggestion: Bound monsters attacking any and every player near them. This is just stupid, and pointless. There is no practical purpose for this game mechanic, and yet it is there. Get rid of it.

Suggestion: On BST.. get rid of the stupid experience penalty, so that they don't have to juggle 3 pets leaving them wandering around aggroing people. An experienced BST isn't affected by the penalty anyways, so all the penalty is doing is creating a dangerous situation for other players around the BST.

Edited, Thu Nov 3 17:08:02 2005 by ThePalace
#46 Nov 03 2005 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
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2,027 posts
Suggestion: Increase the ammount of information logged on the server about how mobs behaved.

Giving more tools for the GMs to find out who MPKed and allow MPKers to be banned faster would help. Fact is, no matter how smart you make a system to avoid griefing, people will still figure out ways to go around it, if few. Fear of being banned is the only thing that will significantly lower it. Of course, most of the stuff people suggested already has to be done TOO. I'm just not going to repeat it ^^ Fact is, as sad as it is, fear seems to be the only thing people act by these days =/

Edited, Thu Nov 3 15:37:47 2005 by Sareko
#47 Nov 03 2005 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
witchdrash wrote:
Think this would be solved by having monsters move back to their original positions very quickly. In addition limit the number of links based on relative levels, so you cant empty an area of mobs who would cause you serious issues, but extras wouldn't link noticing that if the group following you catch up you're going to die.


good point...this would also help in other instances, like i wonder how many times i've waited just inside kuftal tunnel because a ghost was ever so slowly wandering back to his home point...

and the second part makes me think of a quadav or something seeing a bunch of other quadav's chasing after an 'adventurer', and saying "eh, ***** it...they'll get him, i don't feel like doing any work today" lol
#48 Nov 03 2005 at 3:22 PM Rating: Default
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507 posts
Stunted wrote:
Suggestion: Level dependant linking. If a level 75 (for example) trains a Goblin through the Dunes next to a Level 15 party fighting the same Monster type, make the monster the party is fighting actually link onto the level 75 rather than the other way around. This way the MPKer is actually attacked by additional mobs, rather than the other way around. Think of it as a "imminent threat" model...the 75 is threatening his Goblin brother more than the party is threatening him. If the 75 zones, only the monster that the party was fighting returns...it does not link onto the other monsters.

Parties won't mind this because the 75 cannot attack the link, therefor they don't lose XP. This is an extreme deterant for high level players fighting in the same area as low level players.


Now if I got this right, the goblin which is being fought by the low level party would go off and link with the other one that is attacking the level 75 guy...
Wouldn't this make it really easy for some 75 in Valkurm to train gobs and lizzies behind them and basically run away with the mobs that parties are fighting with?
#49 Nov 03 2005 at 3:22 PM Rating: Decent
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1,451 posts
I don't really have a suggestion about stopping MPK since so many people before me came up with such good ideas.

I would like to say thanks for coming here and I hope you ask for more feedback in the future! If you read the "feedback" forum on this site there are all sorts of ideas over there.

Fred.
#50 Nov 03 2005 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Now if I got this right, the goblin which is being fought by the low level party would go off and link with the other one that is attacking the level 75 guy...
Wouldn't this make it really easy for some 75 in Valkurm to train gobs and lizzies behind them and basically run away with the mobs that parties are fighting with?


Yes, but he can't kill them, and they return to the party once he zones/logs. Even if your 75...60 Goblins on your *** that you can't fight is gonna hurt.
#51 Nov 03 2005 at 3:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wow, I'm surprised.

Okay, most of the big issues have already been pointed out.

1) BSTs using Leave with Aggressive pets has always cause problems.

2) The Binding of mobs has also proven a pain, though it can be much more easily avoided if you're actually paying attention to your surroundings.

3) Out-of-party AoE seems rather silly, as Bombs self-destructing or goblins dropping their bombs as been to known to take out passer-bys all too often.

4) While /blockaid can help prevent spike hate issues, people need to remember to turn it on. Thus, somewhere in the options this should become a permanet toggle like /anon. Furthermore, this should be split a subsequent /blockinvite so party/alliance invites can still be accepted while refusing outside aid.

5) Charmed party members should only be targetable by your party/alliance. Much as I enjoy killing Gil Sellers at Pallas, they won't hesitate to do the same.

6) Rework the aggro/link system.

6a) At present, a single aggressive mob will decide to attack a full alliance even if it's 10 levels below everyone. This speaks bounds about the lack of AI amongst the mob pool.

6b) Other factors such as the amount of mobs within its same family are around and the strength of what that alliance might be fighting should be taken into consideration. Nidhogg is a big nasty dragon. Why would the spiders want to be anywhere around it if trained?

6c) Intimidation relationships should be considered. Vermin are intimidated by lizards. Aggressive vermin should not attack a group while they are fighting lizard(s), if anything they should help the party for engaging their natural enemy, but for balance purposes, becoming non-aggressive works.

6d) Enhance or outright implement a "give up chase" system. Sound aggro mobs tend to express this trait the most amongst the current system, particularly crabs or crawlers after running over water. Create a "leash" based on the scale of the level difference between the mob and the player and a lack of activity by the player toward the mob in reference to the mob's spawn point. If the player's level is greater, the mob won't chase it as far. If the player's level is weaker, the mob will go a bit more out of its way, but will inevitably give up.

6e) Make sure mobs forget you if they do give up chase or can't act upon you after 5 minutes. I've abandoned worms in Kuftal Tunnel, only to run by them 45 minutes later and get aggroed (they're non-aggro, but I'd been picking on them for archery skill up).

6f) Sound aggro is presently the most dangerous type of aggro as it is based on a radius. I suggest this aggro be split further into two types: mobs with eyes and mobs without. Those with eyes, instead of immediately running for you, will turn to make visual verification. This range could be slightly shorter than the sound range itself, lending the chance of escape. Pure sound aggro, however, will adopt a form of "hot or cold" mentality. If you continue moving, they will give chase as you are constantly giving them a "hot" signal. Remain still, and you will go "cold". This system would nullify once the mob makes physical contact and the aforementioned "chase" or "leash" system would then come into play if the mob is not killed.

7) Add an option for a player to disable Call For Help entirely. This isn't quite MPK related, but it can lead to accidents due to lag instituted by more extreme MPK tactics.

8) Make scent mean something. Deodorizers are more or less NPC fodder for Alchemists. With an enhanced scent system, a player could give themselves an affect to smell like a particular mob family. This could either reduce aggro based on detection type, or eliminate linking altogether.

..and I think that about covers my ideas for the moment.
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