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Suggestions for changing the MPK systemFollow
#177
Nov 03 2005 at 5:56 PM
38 posts
I agree with all the suggestions you stated. I know in World of Warcraft they have the monsters not aggro until they go back to their respective starting point, which prevents MPKing. I would really like to see that put into effect. Also I agree that monster's AoEs should not effect other parties that are not within the alliance that is fighting it, unless they have hit it and build up hate on the monster. i.e. switching out of alliance or in Dynamis.
#178
Nov 03 2005 at 5:57 PM
My suggestions have already been covered, but I did want to point out something about the 'Mob Flipping to Yellow' issue.
This is NOT a glitch. This is done on purpose, and to quote a GM, "Adds to the challenge of the game."
The game makers encourage stealing apparently. :P If I had the name of said GM I'd plaster it here. A friend of mine (Who I was talking to directly when this occurred.) was incredibly irate at having lost a nm to this issue, called a GM, and was told nothing could be done as it was intentional.
I for one would love to see this 'glitch' removed. It does nothing to encourage teamwork, and instead only encourages underhanded behavior.
Edit: I spell gud.
Edited, Thu Nov 3 18:07:17 2005 by Ralloonx
This is NOT a glitch. This is done on purpose, and to quote a GM, "Adds to the challenge of the game."
The game makers encourage stealing apparently. :P If I had the name of said GM I'd plaster it here. A friend of mine (Who I was talking to directly when this occurred.) was incredibly irate at having lost a nm to this issue, called a GM, and was told nothing could be done as it was intentional.
I for one would love to see this 'glitch' removed. It does nothing to encourage teamwork, and instead only encourages underhanded behavior.
Edit: I spell gud.
Edited, Thu Nov 3 18:07:17 2005 by Ralloonx
#179
Nov 03 2005 at 5:59 PM
Scholar
32 posts
not just the big mobs either should have a GM at the spawn. why not just have em set in every region. i was xping once in Valley of Sorrows and we were at a 2 pt camp and the other pt was tell us to leave or they wouldnt have enough mobs ot fight. we just continued to xp right where we were and on the the other pts members called in her "friend" colenzo(jerk if i ever saw him)goes and trains birds and dinos right on top of us. i think half our pt died including the whm. there was about 15-20 mobs. so yeah. please instead of fixing the monsters that link why not fix the problem. i say when u get 3-4 ppl calling from the same area about the same problem get out there right away and take care of it. i called in about colenzo and i never got a response back. i say, "BAN HIM!!!"
Edited, Thu Nov 3 18:16:45 2005 by Nexeroth
Edited, Thu Nov 3 18:16:45 2005 by Nexeroth
#180
Nov 03 2005 at 6:00 PM
I think this quote said it best
This person has all the right ideas about it and in the end makes it much more interesting to boot. If you took even half his suggestions I think this could make the mob AI in FFXI one of the best in any MMO.
Quote:
Okay, most of the big issues have already been pointed out.
1) BSTs using Leave with Aggressive pets has always cause problems.
2) The Binding of mobs has also proven a pain, though it can be much more easily avoided if you're actually paying attention to your surroundings.
3) Out-of-party AoE seems rather silly, as Bombs self-destructing or goblins dropping their bombs as been to known to take out passer-bys all too often.
4) While /blockaid can help prevent spike hate issues, people need to remember to turn it on. Thus, somewhere in the options this should become a permanet toggle like /anon. Furthermore, this should be split a subsequent /blockinvite so party/alliance invites can still be accepted while refusing outside aid.
5) Charmed party members should only be targetable by your party/alliance. Much as I enjoy killing Gil Sellers at Pallas, they won't hesitate to do the same.
6) Rework the aggro/link system.
6a) At present, a single aggressive mob will decide to attack a full alliance even if it's 10 levels below everyone. This speaks bounds about the lack of AI amongst the mob pool.
6b) Other factors such as the amount of mobs within its same family are around and the strength of what that alliance might be fighting should be taken into consideration. Nidhogg is a big nasty dragon. Why would the spiders want to be anywhere around it if trained?
6c) Intimidation relationships should be considered. Vermin are intimidated by lizards. Aggressive vermin should not attack a group while they are fighting lizard(s), if anything they should help the party for engaging their natural enemy, but for balance purposes, becoming non-aggressive works.
6d) Enhance or outright implement a "give up chase" system. Sound aggro mobs tend to express this trait the most amongst the current system, particularly crabs or crawlers after running over water. Create a "leash" based on the scale of the level difference between the mob and the player and a lack of activity by the player toward the mob in reference to the mob's spawn point. If the player's level is greater, the mob won't chase it as far. If the player's level is weaker, the mob will go a bit more out of its way, but will inevitably give up.
6e) Make sure mobs forget you if they do give up chase or can't act upon you after 5 minutes. I've abandoned worms in Kuftal Tunnel, only to run by them 45 minutes later and get aggroed (they're non-aggro, but I'd been picking on them for archery skill up).
6f) Sound aggro is presently the most dangerous type of aggro as it is based on a radius. I suggest this aggro be split further into two types: mobs with eyes and mobs without. Those with eyes, instead of immediately running for you, will turn to make visual verification. This range could be slightly shorter than the sound range itself, lending the chance of escape. Pure sound aggro, however, will adopt a form of "hot or cold" mentality. If you continue moving, they will give chase as you are constantly giving them a "hot" signal. Remain still, and you will go "cold". This system would nullify once the mob makes physical contact and the aforementioned "chase" or "leash" system would then come into play if the mob is not killed.
7) Add an option for a player to disable Call For Help entirely. This isn't quite MPK related, but it can lead to accidents due to lag instituted by more extreme MPK tactics.
8) Make scent mean something. Deodorizers are more or less NPC fodder for Alchemists. With an enhanced scent system, a player could give themselves an affect to smell like a particular mob family. This could either reduce aggro based on detection type, or eliminate linking altogether.
..and I think that about covers my ideas for the moment.
1) BSTs using Leave with Aggressive pets has always cause problems.
2) The Binding of mobs has also proven a pain, though it can be much more easily avoided if you're actually paying attention to your surroundings.
3) Out-of-party AoE seems rather silly, as Bombs self-destructing or goblins dropping their bombs as been to known to take out passer-bys all too often.
4) While /blockaid can help prevent spike hate issues, people need to remember to turn it on. Thus, somewhere in the options this should become a permanet toggle like /anon. Furthermore, this should be split a subsequent /blockinvite so party/alliance invites can still be accepted while refusing outside aid.
5) Charmed party members should only be targetable by your party/alliance. Much as I enjoy killing Gil Sellers at Pallas, they won't hesitate to do the same.
6) Rework the aggro/link system.
6a) At present, a single aggressive mob will decide to attack a full alliance even if it's 10 levels below everyone. This speaks bounds about the lack of AI amongst the mob pool.
6b) Other factors such as the amount of mobs within its same family are around and the strength of what that alliance might be fighting should be taken into consideration. Nidhogg is a big nasty dragon. Why would the spiders want to be anywhere around it if trained?
6c) Intimidation relationships should be considered. Vermin are intimidated by lizards. Aggressive vermin should not attack a group while they are fighting lizard(s), if anything they should help the party for engaging their natural enemy, but for balance purposes, becoming non-aggressive works.
6d) Enhance or outright implement a "give up chase" system. Sound aggro mobs tend to express this trait the most amongst the current system, particularly crabs or crawlers after running over water. Create a "leash" based on the scale of the level difference between the mob and the player and a lack of activity by the player toward the mob in reference to the mob's spawn point. If the player's level is greater, the mob won't chase it as far. If the player's level is weaker, the mob will go a bit more out of its way, but will inevitably give up.
6e) Make sure mobs forget you if they do give up chase or can't act upon you after 5 minutes. I've abandoned worms in Kuftal Tunnel, only to run by them 45 minutes later and get aggroed (they're non-aggro, but I'd been picking on them for archery skill up).
6f) Sound aggro is presently the most dangerous type of aggro as it is based on a radius. I suggest this aggro be split further into two types: mobs with eyes and mobs without. Those with eyes, instead of immediately running for you, will turn to make visual verification. This range could be slightly shorter than the sound range itself, lending the chance of escape. Pure sound aggro, however, will adopt a form of "hot or cold" mentality. If you continue moving, they will give chase as you are constantly giving them a "hot" signal. Remain still, and you will go "cold". This system would nullify once the mob makes physical contact and the aforementioned "chase" or "leash" system would then come into play if the mob is not killed.
7) Add an option for a player to disable Call For Help entirely. This isn't quite MPK related, but it can lead to accidents due to lag instituted by more extreme MPK tactics.
8) Make scent mean something. Deodorizers are more or less NPC fodder for Alchemists. With an enhanced scent system, a player could give themselves an affect to smell like a particular mob family. This could either reduce aggro based on detection type, or eliminate linking altogether.
..and I think that about covers my ideas for the moment.
This person has all the right ideas about it and in the end makes it much more interesting to boot. If you took even half his suggestions I think this could make the mob AI in FFXI one of the best in any MMO.
#181
Nov 03 2005 at 6:00 PM
Suggestion:
Like many others have said, the Bind/Shadowbind MPK tactic really needs to be rectified. Either it's a glitch or SE was looking for mobs going crazy and hitting whatever they can when bound. Well if the later is the case, no one cares so that should either way be taken out.
Suggestion:
The Charm/Leave MPK tactic needs to be fixed as well. As people have mentioned about the whole neutral trained mobs returning to positions without aggro, I think this has merit but mainly towards the Leave MPK. But as for regular train MPKs, a slightly different approach should be tested out first. Like...
Suggestion: *one of my fav*
Perhaps make mobs returning from a train only link (if they do link) but no aggro. Or vice versa, mobs will aggro (if they do aggro) but not link.
For example of link only, Citadel Bats being trained to zone in Garlaige will NOT hit anyone while it is going back to it's starting location, so long as you are not fighting bats. Thus, people fighting beetles or that are having downtime (AFK, resting for mp, etc) can continue without worry. This also prevents Weapons and Undead from being a problem to parties in GC, as both types do not link at all. The game will technically continue the same way it always has, in regards to timing your pulls. Even though watching Undead walk by you without aggro while /heal-ing would be a bit odd, it's probably the least problematic yet most beneficial of the 2.
As for the aggro only part, the lighter situations would benefit greatly from this. Such as pulling a single mob from a group of linking mobs without worry, so long as they are still heading back to their original positions. This also allows for an easier time of people clearing the zone lines of high level aggro mobs without link based problems. Although this may or may not be problematic in the future.
Suggestion:
In regards to the AoE MPK, there are up's and down's to anything that would be done. No matter what, NM/HNM/God AoE should remain the same. DO NOT touch that at all. But as for normal mobs, I think there are some things that need to be reworked. Some AoE's that affect outside PT's are fine, they're annoying, but fine so do with them however you feel. Such as Bubble Shower from crabs... I think that hit's outside players. Typically you don't encounter ones that are highly damaging (save for Steelshells). But as for abilities that can be problematic to outside players, namely ones that inflict hurtful status based things like Stun or Silence, those may need to be changed to PT only type of abilities. Heavy damage AoE from normal mobs may also need to be changed, but those tend to be situational so it's hard to say. Not to mention the fact that there aren't many that ARE problematic. Suicide bombs from gobs and Bombs self-destruct are not really problematic things. They're rarely affecting outside players. We've all been hit at least once by these things, but out of all the times that you've been hit or had it done how many were actually big problems? Compare that to the times it wasn't (including when it happens when no one else is around).
Those abilities can actually be somewhat beneficial for getting rid of stupid/stuck up PT's that camp over you. "This is my/our spot" kind thinking would be strengthened if no actual consequences were possible. Besides, multiple PT's in one spot only mean less mobs to exp off of.
- Now in reply to people bringing up sellers, don't bother. This topic (as was brought up) is ONLY about MPK. Plus, getting rid of them won't change much of anything. There will be changes, but not too much. Especially considering how prices are right now. The economy is a LOST CAUSE. There is no hope for a better change based on the road it's been taking in the past to now. It's impossible to make things cheaper, unless SE were to take desperate measures about the economy. As a matter of fact, I can guarantee there will be price increases to the already insanely high price of equips/materials. Look what happened to Emp Pins and Archer Rings after the change. Most, if not all, servers had those equip prices increased significantly. And this wasn't due to sellers, this was because of players. So as always, there are consequences to everything, it just depends on what measures those in power take.
Edited, Thu Nov 3 18:31:39 2005 by Welsper
Like many others have said, the Bind/Shadowbind MPK tactic really needs to be rectified. Either it's a glitch or SE was looking for mobs going crazy and hitting whatever they can when bound. Well if the later is the case, no one cares so that should either way be taken out.
Suggestion:
The Charm/Leave MPK tactic needs to be fixed as well. As people have mentioned about the whole neutral trained mobs returning to positions without aggro, I think this has merit but mainly towards the Leave MPK. But as for regular train MPKs, a slightly different approach should be tested out first. Like...
Suggestion: *one of my fav*
Perhaps make mobs returning from a train only link (if they do link) but no aggro. Or vice versa, mobs will aggro (if they do aggro) but not link.
For example of link only, Citadel Bats being trained to zone in Garlaige will NOT hit anyone while it is going back to it's starting location, so long as you are not fighting bats. Thus, people fighting beetles or that are having downtime (AFK, resting for mp, etc) can continue without worry. This also prevents Weapons and Undead from being a problem to parties in GC, as both types do not link at all. The game will technically continue the same way it always has, in regards to timing your pulls. Even though watching Undead walk by you without aggro while /heal-ing would be a bit odd, it's probably the least problematic yet most beneficial of the 2.
As for the aggro only part, the lighter situations would benefit greatly from this. Such as pulling a single mob from a group of linking mobs without worry, so long as they are still heading back to their original positions. This also allows for an easier time of people clearing the zone lines of high level aggro mobs without link based problems. Although this may or may not be problematic in the future.
Suggestion:
In regards to the AoE MPK, there are up's and down's to anything that would be done. No matter what, NM/HNM/God AoE should remain the same. DO NOT touch that at all. But as for normal mobs, I think there are some things that need to be reworked. Some AoE's that affect outside PT's are fine, they're annoying, but fine so do with them however you feel. Such as Bubble Shower from crabs... I think that hit's outside players. Typically you don't encounter ones that are highly damaging (save for Steelshells). But as for abilities that can be problematic to outside players, namely ones that inflict hurtful status based things like Stun or Silence, those may need to be changed to PT only type of abilities. Heavy damage AoE from normal mobs may also need to be changed, but those tend to be situational so it's hard to say. Not to mention the fact that there aren't many that ARE problematic. Suicide bombs from gobs and Bombs self-destruct are not really problematic things. They're rarely affecting outside players. We've all been hit at least once by these things, but out of all the times that you've been hit or had it done how many were actually big problems? Compare that to the times it wasn't (including when it happens when no one else is around).
Those abilities can actually be somewhat beneficial for getting rid of stupid/stuck up PT's that camp over you. "This is my/our spot" kind thinking would be strengthened if no actual consequences were possible. Besides, multiple PT's in one spot only mean less mobs to exp off of.
- Now in reply to people bringing up sellers, don't bother. This topic (as was brought up) is ONLY about MPK. Plus, getting rid of them won't change much of anything. There will be changes, but not too much. Especially considering how prices are right now. The economy is a LOST CAUSE. There is no hope for a better change based on the road it's been taking in the past to now. It's impossible to make things cheaper, unless SE were to take desperate measures about the economy. As a matter of fact, I can guarantee there will be price increases to the already insanely high price of equips/materials. Look what happened to Emp Pins and Archer Rings after the change. Most, if not all, servers had those equip prices increased significantly. And this wasn't due to sellers, this was because of players. So as always, there are consequences to everything, it just depends on what measures those in power take.
Edited, Thu Nov 3 18:31:39 2005 by Welsper
#182
Nov 03 2005 at 6:01 PM
I'm not reading all of the suggestions above me, but from a Beastmaster point of view, I probably know most of them anyways.
Suggestion: I do think that Leave should daze a monster until it returns home. I often find myself farming with aggressive mobs in Crawlers' Nest, and it's a pain in the rear to kill them off before I leave simply because I know that they are going to totally /butthurt everyone in their path on their way home. I do not wish to hurt any innocent people with it, nor do I have any evil intentions, it's just simply the most powerful monster in the entire zone. (Crawler Hunters, for reference.) It's a hassle to kill off my pet before I go, and by simply changing how Leave works, it would prevent a lot of problems for me, and would also help prevent the bad apple Beastmasters from doing things such as MPKing people.
Suggestion: I don't believe, however, that mobs shouldn't link. (Like one of the people said above me.) That would simply make this game too easy, and would take a lot of fun out of Thief for me. (Thief being one of the best pullers in the game, imo.)
Suggestion: Meh. This is a debatable one. Ahkore, I know you guys do the best you can to not interfere with gameplay too much, so I understand how this may be a touchy one. But I think that if you are in the area of an area attack, it should hit you. Otherwise, why would it be an "Area" attack if it can't hit everyone in the area? That's just nonsense. Sure, it could take out an innocent passerby...But they really should have been paying more attention to what was going on around them. Or at least that's how I feel about it.
Suggestion: I love the idea of extending on the /blockaid feature. Right now, it's very vauge and bare. I've had mobs stolen from me with the Spikes thing before while levelling Beastmaster, and whether it was on purpose, or by total accident (Nice mages throwing me cures as they pass me by. :D) I would like to avoid this while still being able to accept party invites. (Because I do party as a Beastmaster sometimes.)
Suggestion: Haha. Yes, please do that...Or at least lower the timer a bit. All too often, I find myself exping near parties...And I mischarm, and die in a really bad spot, and all I can do is watch the mobs run over to a party and kill them. I don't like that. ;_;
PS: Give Dragoons some love. They need it!
Suggestion: I do think that Leave should daze a monster until it returns home. I often find myself farming with aggressive mobs in Crawlers' Nest, and it's a pain in the rear to kill them off before I leave simply because I know that they are going to totally /butthurt everyone in their path on their way home. I do not wish to hurt any innocent people with it, nor do I have any evil intentions, it's just simply the most powerful monster in the entire zone. (Crawler Hunters, for reference.) It's a hassle to kill off my pet before I go, and by simply changing how Leave works, it would prevent a lot of problems for me, and would also help prevent the bad apple Beastmasters from doing things such as MPKing people.
Suggestion: I don't believe, however, that mobs shouldn't link. (Like one of the people said above me.) That would simply make this game too easy, and would take a lot of fun out of Thief for me. (Thief being one of the best pullers in the game, imo.)
Quote:
AoE damage should not affect players in other parties not engaged in the battle with the monster that initiated the AoE attack!
Suggestion: Meh. This is a debatable one. Ahkore, I know you guys do the best you can to not interfere with gameplay too much, so I understand how this may be a touchy one. But I think that if you are in the area of an area attack, it should hit you. Otherwise, why would it be an "Area" attack if it can't hit everyone in the area? That's just nonsense. Sure, it could take out an innocent passerby...But they really should have been paying more attention to what was going on around them. Or at least that's how I feel about it.
Quote:
4) While /blockaid can help prevent spike hate issues, people need to remember to turn it on. Thus, somewhere in the options this should become a permanet toggle like /anon. Furthermore, this should be split a subsequent /blockinvite so party/alliance invites can still be accepted while refusing outside aid.
Suggestion: I love the idea of extending on the /blockaid feature. Right now, it's very vauge and bare. I've had mobs stolen from me with the Spikes thing before while levelling Beastmaster, and whether it was on purpose, or by total accident (Nice mages throwing me cures as they pass me by. :D) I would like to avoid this while still being able to accept party invites. (Because I do party as a Beastmaster sometimes.)
Quote:
Suggestion: 2 minute cool down on tame.
Suggestion: Haha. Yes, please do that...Or at least lower the timer a bit. All too often, I find myself exping near parties...And I mischarm, and die in a really bad spot, and all I can do is watch the mobs run over to a party and kill them. I don't like that. ;_;
PS: Give Dragoons some love. They need it!
#183
Nov 03 2005 at 6:02 PM
Quote:
Problems with this idea. POWER LEVELING. Not just gobbie bombs in the dunes, either.
Hehe, although I agree in principle (it should be anyone with hate), you picked a very poor example as gob bombs do only hit the party/alliance they are targetted on. :P
A much better example is Kirin. Kirin loves his stonega's and it very common to be using outside healers. By all rights they should be vulnerable to the AoE of Kirin's stonega's, whether they are primary target or not. But, in all cases where I feel AoE should be able to toast an outsider, they will have hate as well. So, I think that's the little tweak needed.
Quote:
This is a good idea in principle. But the first thing that came to mind when I heard about it would be the EASY PULLING. Think about it. Charm, say, a Tormentor in Den of Rancor. Release it and a party can grab it. You wouldn't even need to be in the party to be its puller.
And gain 0 experience from every pull. I don't suppose you've ever been in a party with a BST in the zone, because it's actually quite annoying when you pull one of their dropped pet, even at full health, and it gives you 0 xp.
To get it to really work, you'd have to pull them quite far, zone, and be zoned for about a minute or two and the mob not be pulled till it's fully restored and reset, which frankly makes this one of the worst pulling methods available as it's far too slow. It's minimal application is really only in very tight camps to break up the mobs, but we can already do this currently, so this particular fix (although I don't think it fully addresses the core problem) at worst just gives us another method of doing something already possible.
#184
Nov 03 2005 at 6:09 PM
just a quick one
Suggestion:Instead of posting a GM at every NM/HNM that is highly sought out by gil sellers, go there once during a spawn and find the said gil seller that's been reported MPKing alot recently and view their actions. Chances are you're gonna see an MPK if they don't get the claim. Immediately after seeing this take action. Whether it's by banning their account and their pt members as well, or even temporarily taking the said pt to jail for questioning and further observation. This just means that you wouldn't need a GM every time a NM spawned, for every NM. With this you can find the culprit and take action right away. A quick example is Serket. I'm on Phoenix server and every time the window is open then same gil sellers are there each time. When they don't get the claim it's 100% chance that a train will be made to MPK, usually by a character named Kanaw. Once a GM view this he can instantly take action against the MPKer and his/her party that's also involved.
Suggestion:Instead of posting a GM at every NM/HNM that is highly sought out by gil sellers, go there once during a spawn and find the said gil seller that's been reported MPKing alot recently and view their actions. Chances are you're gonna see an MPK if they don't get the claim. Immediately after seeing this take action. Whether it's by banning their account and their pt members as well, or even temporarily taking the said pt to jail for questioning and further observation. This just means that you wouldn't need a GM every time a NM spawned, for every NM. With this you can find the culprit and take action right away. A quick example is Serket. I'm on Phoenix server and every time the window is open then same gil sellers are there each time. When they don't get the claim it's 100% chance that a train will be made to MPK, usually by a character named Kanaw. Once a GM view this he can instantly take action against the MPKer and his/her party that's also involved.
#186
Nov 03 2005 at 6:19 PM
8 posts
Suggestion:
I had a thought about the linking.
How about make monsters only link if they are ep or higher.
---
Zal
I had a thought about the linking.
How about make monsters only link if they are ep or higher.
---
Zal
#187
Nov 03 2005 at 6:19 PM
I've seen a lot of great suggestions already and pretty much everything has already been said, but I wanted to throw mine out even though they've already been said:
Suggestion: GM Monitoring. Have GM's monitor a few random HNM spawns on a few random servers each day. Doesn't need to be much, maybe monitor 1 random HNM per server per day, it would make a world of difference. Right now, there is simply no reaction to the MPK situation. MPK is not that big of a deal really, it's the fact that it goes entirely unpunished when it is so mind-numbingly easy to observe. We can call people gilsellers all day long and it doesn't give you any proof and that's frustrating to us, but when we are MPK'd outright in front of hundreds of people and still nothing is done, that's far more frustrating.
Suggestion: Certain attacks should have their AoE damage reduced to alliance-only. I've noticed that currently some attacks (like Bubble Shower from crabs) damage only party/alliance members. I think more attacks should be made this way, for example the AoE specials from undead like Blood Saber. There are still AoE which should do damage to everyone as I think it makes the game harder. I'm not sure about AoE spells like Aeroga... that's a bit more difficult to decide.
Lastly I would like to strongly agree that the Bind/Shadowbind thing needs to be fixed.
Suggestion: GM Monitoring. Have GM's monitor a few random HNM spawns on a few random servers each day. Doesn't need to be much, maybe monitor 1 random HNM per server per day, it would make a world of difference. Right now, there is simply no reaction to the MPK situation. MPK is not that big of a deal really, it's the fact that it goes entirely unpunished when it is so mind-numbingly easy to observe. We can call people gilsellers all day long and it doesn't give you any proof and that's frustrating to us, but when we are MPK'd outright in front of hundreds of people and still nothing is done, that's far more frustrating.
Suggestion: Certain attacks should have their AoE damage reduced to alliance-only. I've noticed that currently some attacks (like Bubble Shower from crabs) damage only party/alliance members. I think more attacks should be made this way, for example the AoE specials from undead like Blood Saber. There are still AoE which should do damage to everyone as I think it makes the game harder. I'm not sure about AoE spells like Aeroga... that's a bit more difficult to decide.
Lastly I would like to strongly agree that the Bind/Shadowbind thing needs to be fixed.
#188
Nov 03 2005 at 6:20 PM
6 posts
As I am still relatively low level, i have not had extensive experience with intended MPK. However, recently a friend and i were engaged in getting one of his Ninja AFs. This required the spawning of the NMs via talking to a ??? in Yhoator Jungle. We chose to pull them one at a time with an avatar to avoid our rapid deaths. This unfortunately left 2 unclaimed NMs at the spawn point. A possibly illfated White Mage ran past the two unclaimed NMs, aggroed them and disappeared down one of the paths. The NMs returned well before the mage could have made it to a zone leading me to believe that he was at best forced to Warp.
Perhaps all forcibly spawned mobs should spawn claimed by the character/party that spawned them.
My 2 cents^^
Perhaps all forcibly spawned mobs should spawn claimed by the character/party that spawned them.
My 2 cents^^
#189
Nov 03 2005 at 6:22 PM
My summary of basic game changes:
- Bound monsters only attack those they have built hate towards, not random players standing nearby.
- Passive state cooldown time on Beastmaster pets left. Also have the same passive state after any time a monster loses it's objects of hate (deoderize, warp, zone, etc.)
- Greatly increased speed of return to spawn area as well as temporary reduced hate/link radius for monsters drug far away from their spawn positions (but still have them aggressive).
- Lengthen the time players are immune to Aggression after zoning.
- No damage or effects for players without hate against Mobs AoE attacks. Note that I said "without hate", not "not in the party/alliance".
- Never ever have a situation where a Mob is hurting you but you can't attack it. (except if you are outside of a party and have earned hate through healing/buffing).
- Have mobs lose hate if they are a sufficient enough level below you and you haven't damaged them in a while. IE: the only way to keep claim on a monster and have it follow you at higher levels above a mob is to keep up damaging them. (note: same cool down and return to spawn points rules for these mobs as any other). Also, decrease link rates and agression rates from monsters the more monsters you already have on you (a reiteration of the limited link suggetion, but not a hard cap).
- Have all claimed mobs that are agressive to you stay red, allowing mutliple claimed enemies; these claimed enemies could only be damaged by you and your party, not by stray AoE from parties you run past then. Combined with the losing of hate and claim entirely from enemies lower than you, this would go a long way to preventing train MPK, as well as limiting AoE mob claiming/farming by higher levels in zones where lower levels are trying to make living xping or single farming.
--------------------------
More general things to reduce MPK in general:
- Increase timer rates, mix up timer settings, or otherwise change spawn conditions on some NMs and HNMs so camps don't become so frustrating, adding to MPK temptation.
- Add alternate methods of getting super rare items, prefereably with instanced battles, to further remove temptation to MPK while camping rare drop mobs.
- Increse the speed and drop rates of certain NMs. This will make these items less rare and bring down their sell price yes, but it will also remove some of the stress in getting said items and thus some of the temptation to MPK. (side note: the decreased prices on these items would also make less stress on people looking to earn the money to get said items, also potentially reducing MPK).
- Streamline reporting and report updating for players. Also, making different categories. This would make even new players better equipped to report MPK abuse.
-------------------------------
Other general notes:
- Some people have suggested putting GMs at HNM pops or other such things. This is a ridiculous waste of time for the GMs. At that point, you may as well just have them post HNM spawn times on playonline.com, have HNMLS roll to reserve them somehow. Which sounds like a better suggestion to me anyways.
- While stricter enforcement of MPK is good and all, it's really hard to tell purpose sometimes. A lot of times, people zone things that have linked on them or attacked them so they won't die, not to get others killed. I've run by an xp group with mobs on the way to the zone and dieed before, with no intention of getting anyone killed; the zone was on the other side of the party in question and I really had no intention or plans of dying in their camp, just running past. While some cases are pretty clear intentional MPK, there are grey zones here. This is why I think the solution lies in game mechanics more than enforcement. That being said, clear intention MPK should of course be punished swiftly and strictly.
=-=-=-=-=
I think that's all I have; wow people are posting fast on this thread :p
Edited, Thu Nov 3 18:52:42 2005 by HyuHyu
- Bound monsters only attack those they have built hate towards, not random players standing nearby.
- Passive state cooldown time on Beastmaster pets left. Also have the same passive state after any time a monster loses it's objects of hate (deoderize, warp, zone, etc.)
- Greatly increased speed of return to spawn area as well as temporary reduced hate/link radius for monsters drug far away from their spawn positions (but still have them aggressive).
- Lengthen the time players are immune to Aggression after zoning.
- No damage or effects for players without hate against Mobs AoE attacks. Note that I said "without hate", not "not in the party/alliance".
- Never ever have a situation where a Mob is hurting you but you can't attack it. (except if you are outside of a party and have earned hate through healing/buffing).
- Have mobs lose hate if they are a sufficient enough level below you and you haven't damaged them in a while. IE: the only way to keep claim on a monster and have it follow you at higher levels above a mob is to keep up damaging them. (note: same cool down and return to spawn points rules for these mobs as any other). Also, decrease link rates and agression rates from monsters the more monsters you already have on you (a reiteration of the limited link suggetion, but not a hard cap).
- Have all claimed mobs that are agressive to you stay red, allowing mutliple claimed enemies; these claimed enemies could only be damaged by you and your party, not by stray AoE from parties you run past then. Combined with the losing of hate and claim entirely from enemies lower than you, this would go a long way to preventing train MPK, as well as limiting AoE mob claiming/farming by higher levels in zones where lower levels are trying to make living xping or single farming.
--------------------------
More general things to reduce MPK in general:
- Increase timer rates, mix up timer settings, or otherwise change spawn conditions on some NMs and HNMs so camps don't become so frustrating, adding to MPK temptation.
- Add alternate methods of getting super rare items, prefereably with instanced battles, to further remove temptation to MPK while camping rare drop mobs.
- Increse the speed and drop rates of certain NMs. This will make these items less rare and bring down their sell price yes, but it will also remove some of the stress in getting said items and thus some of the temptation to MPK. (side note: the decreased prices on these items would also make less stress on people looking to earn the money to get said items, also potentially reducing MPK).
- Streamline reporting and report updating for players. Also, making different categories. This would make even new players better equipped to report MPK abuse.
-------------------------------
Other general notes:
- Some people have suggested putting GMs at HNM pops or other such things. This is a ridiculous waste of time for the GMs. At that point, you may as well just have them post HNM spawn times on playonline.com, have HNMLS roll to reserve them somehow. Which sounds like a better suggestion to me anyways.
- While stricter enforcement of MPK is good and all, it's really hard to tell purpose sometimes. A lot of times, people zone things that have linked on them or attacked them so they won't die, not to get others killed. I've run by an xp group with mobs on the way to the zone and dieed before, with no intention of getting anyone killed; the zone was on the other side of the party in question and I really had no intention or plans of dying in their camp, just running past. While some cases are pretty clear intentional MPK, there are grey zones here. This is why I think the solution lies in game mechanics more than enforcement. That being said, clear intention MPK should of course be punished swiftly and strictly.
=-=-=-=-=
I think that's all I have; wow people are posting fast on this thread :p
Edited, Thu Nov 3 18:52:42 2005 by HyuHyu
#190
Nov 03 2005 at 6:26 PM
One of the bigger indirect MPK problems I've come to notice as a serious problem in my 2 years playing is the Claim vs. Hate system. Take for instance:
Level 62-65 in Boyahda Tree, fighting Crawlers in the upper tunnel system near the Steelshell pond. There's one or two reliable camps on the ramp in that tunnel, however every now and then the respawns tend to find themselves in odd spots inside the upper tunnel where parties tend to camp. At this level, if you have a Rdm, Brd, or Blm in group...it's not hard to have one of the available sleepers work crowd control to keep the add slept to avoid getting slaughtered.
However during heavy competition, the real problem is that mob becomes "available" so to speak, to other pullers so that the mob can be "claimed". This action (if done through Ranged Attack) causes a situation where the Sleeper -has- hate/aggro retained on them, while there is no claim...therefore the people "with" hate/aggro cannot act/react accordingly. This is a form of misused MPK also, and can be seen done at various HNM where Adds are an issue (Hakutaku comes to mind...). It causes an uncontrollable element where the party in danger -cannot- react to protect themselves, and they are unable to stop being slaughtered by a particular mob.
In this case, I believe the system should be reworked where "claim" overrides hate/aggro, almost like a reset on mob aggression. Yes, the 1st party initially slept it, but they shouldn't be pummeled for simply controlling their situation in "their" camp because a passerby puller saw an unclaimed mob and threw a boomerang at it. As I said, this is also a misused form of MPK that is abused.
Level 62-65 in Boyahda Tree, fighting Crawlers in the upper tunnel system near the Steelshell pond. There's one or two reliable camps on the ramp in that tunnel, however every now and then the respawns tend to find themselves in odd spots inside the upper tunnel where parties tend to camp. At this level, if you have a Rdm, Brd, or Blm in group...it's not hard to have one of the available sleepers work crowd control to keep the add slept to avoid getting slaughtered.
However during heavy competition, the real problem is that mob becomes "available" so to speak, to other pullers so that the mob can be "claimed". This action (if done through Ranged Attack) causes a situation where the Sleeper -has- hate/aggro retained on them, while there is no claim...therefore the people "with" hate/aggro cannot act/react accordingly. This is a form of misused MPK also, and can be seen done at various HNM where Adds are an issue (Hakutaku comes to mind...). It causes an uncontrollable element where the party in danger -cannot- react to protect themselves, and they are unable to stop being slaughtered by a particular mob.
In this case, I believe the system should be reworked where "claim" overrides hate/aggro, almost like a reset on mob aggression. Yes, the 1st party initially slept it, but they shouldn't be pummeled for simply controlling their situation in "their" camp because a passerby puller saw an unclaimed mob and threw a boomerang at it. As I said, this is also a misused form of MPK that is abused.
#191
Nov 03 2005 at 6:29 PM
6 posts
I tend to agree with many of the suggestions presented here. Here's something that happened in a party a couple weeks ago.
Some LS mates were camping Charbydis in Sea Serpent Grotto. Apparently it had popped when they weren't prepared, and they wiped to it. I had just logged in and was asked if I could go raise them, so I port and head there. A couple other LS mates joined up with me. Part way through the grotto, one of them go aggro from a Sahagin, so I joined to fight. At that time a group of JP started to gather and were about ready to fight Charbydis, so they urged me to head on, leaving the guy who got aggro to solo it.
Around the time I finally arrived to raise the party, the JP group had claimed Charbydis. The guy who got aggro was losing, so he decided to escape out. We didn't realize that the sahagin would maintain aggro on me, so it wound its way through the grotto and brought about 40 of his friends with him. They killed me fairly quickly, but on their way back they wiped the JP party fighting Charbydis, effectively MPK'ing them.
They understandably call for a GM, but I managed to tell them what happened. They joined our party, and when the sword dropped, one of them got it.
Some of the suggestions made here would solve this problem -- warping the mobs back after killing me (since I was the only one that had aggro at that point), limiting the number of links, etc. So this story is just something perhaps to keep in mind when updating the aggro / linking system.
Some LS mates were camping Charbydis in Sea Serpent Grotto. Apparently it had popped when they weren't prepared, and they wiped to it. I had just logged in and was asked if I could go raise them, so I port and head there. A couple other LS mates joined up with me. Part way through the grotto, one of them go aggro from a Sahagin, so I joined to fight. At that time a group of JP started to gather and were about ready to fight Charbydis, so they urged me to head on, leaving the guy who got aggro to solo it.
Around the time I finally arrived to raise the party, the JP group had claimed Charbydis. The guy who got aggro was losing, so he decided to escape out. We didn't realize that the sahagin would maintain aggro on me, so it wound its way through the grotto and brought about 40 of his friends with him. They killed me fairly quickly, but on their way back they wiped the JP party fighting Charbydis, effectively MPK'ing them.
They understandably call for a GM, but I managed to tell them what happened. They joined our party, and when the sword dropped, one of them got it.
Some of the suggestions made here would solve this problem -- warping the mobs back after killing me (since I was the only one that had aggro at that point), limiting the number of links, etc. So this story is just something perhaps to keep in mind when updating the aggro / linking system.
#192
Nov 03 2005 at 6:31 PM
Quote:
Kirin loves his stonega's and it very common to be using outside healers. By all rights they should be vulnerable to the AoE of Kirin's stonega's
Problem is this isnt even true in party. Kirin only stonga's people with masive hate, so if your a tank/blm/mnk and in range your toast. My GFs bard on the otherhand was in range accidentally for at least 2 stongas in our last two Kirin runs, and didnt get a scratch. You can litterealy have a whole alliance in range for the stonga yet have only 4 people actually be hit with it as I found out very recently. Its strange but its true.
what I think eventually happens is that so many people eventually get hate that everyone will eventually get hit, but we had half a alliance accidentally in range because the -ga call came too late yet only 3 people died and the rest where untouched.
#193
Nov 03 2005 at 6:32 PM
Well, first of all, bravo to SE, and their rep Ahkore, for finally coming to a place where they can hear our concerns. You should take a bit of time to view some of the forums on here. I think you'd find a lot of problems that need fixing, and maybe a few solutions.
I realize that's offtopic but just a little note to start off this post <3
Ok, first a responce to your suggestions:
"Make it so monsters trained to the zone do not aggro until they've walked back to their original starting point!"
Problem: 0 accountability for training a zone, and a whole world of abuse. Consider this:
Bastok's "Escort for Hire" quest requires that you bring Olavia safely inside. It would not be beyond a player to begin this quest, then have his friends train the zones with all the mobs they can. This opens the quest to massive abuse and endless interruption of leveling.
And this:
We will use CN again because I can forsee this happening very easily there. A player is in the lower section, where the Exo room and Strange Apparatus are. His job is THF and he has flee up. He gets two Soldier Crawlers by accident, but doesn't see until they reach the party. The party takes on one, leaving him to zone the link. THF uses flee and pulls the crawler to zone, linking the majority of the crawlers on the way. Now every player must sit and wait for the train to return the mobs to their spots, even if they can't die from the Soldier's agg.
Trains are sadly a fact of the game, and making them non-aggro just to avoid MPK will do nothing.
Problem: This will not end the reason why MPK occurs at the HNM spawns. Why? Because they players will simply sit inches from the HNM and wait for any sign of a wipe and steal it. It makes no sense. AoE SHOULD be AoE. It helps prevent people from just standing there waiting on the death of the people fighting the mob.
"
Suggestion: Released BST pets shouldn't aggro other people!
"
Problem: This doesn't resolve BST MPK. It just gives them a great way to grief parties without having to worry about any unsightly accidents.
As was said earlier, you should be asking WHY MPK happens, not HOW to stop it. The best way to stop something is to find its root cause and solve that.
So, here's a...
"
Suggestion: Make EVERY HNM a forced, instanced, BCNM-style fight. Sound crazy? Bear with me. The major reason you see MPK around these mobs is because the drops are insanely valuable. Now I realize making them more available means you'd have to give into seeing a lot of players with items that you wish they could not obtain. By that I mean you prefer that "Elite" items be something special and rare, rather than every single person on server walking around wearing a Sha'ir Manteel, a Joyouse, and a Kraken Club in their for-show-only bazaar.
However, let me explain how the instance would work. First, the pop of the instance would still be the same as a normal mob spawn: It would pop X amount of time after the last death. However, the difference would be that the player must either trade or examine a ??? at a random spot. At that time, ONLY those present within the alliance would be given the right to enter a special arena to fight the monster. Yes, that means no two-alliance monster parties unless you impliment some kind of extended alliance system (which you could, I don't know).
This ends that version of MPK. Since you could have the ??? pop anywhere in the spawn area it would still keep up the competition for the point. ALSO! Those involved would be flagged to be UNABLE to enter the spot for 3 DAYS! This prevents monopolization of the spawn by any group.
IF the party dies to the mob, they are given the standard attempted raise time before being spit out and the spot of the ???. ALSO a 2 hour time limit would be imposed. This prevents people from just holding a mob forever. You could put a 1 hour cap (since they go into overdrive mode then) but honestly leave well enough alone. If the PT gets to 1 hour, let the mob thrash them hard.
"
"
Another Suggestion: Actually investigate calls. Honestly GM's have become little more than a kind ear to problems, as nothing is ever done. I realize this is hard, because if a group of people decide to get someone in trouble it would be easy to send countless GM calls on one person to blacken their name. However, I just feel the system as it stands does not punish a player for MPKing someone out of spite or malice. You cannot stop that spite or malice from occuring, however there should be some way to track a user's behavior and create a "criminal record" of sorts to basically show their desire to MPK.
I've had someone out and out say to me that what they did was attempt to kill my party. This person was not jailed nor were they banned. Often it's because it takes so long to get a call that the offending PK has safely exited a zone long before the GM contacts us.
Perhaps some system of priority needs to be made so that MPKs are dealt with quickly.
"
"
Suggestion: Follow the suggestion made by several posts. Bound mobs attack no one but their claimed owner and their PT. For that matter, any mobs nearby that are unclaimed should link and hunt down that person. I believe that's how it currently works anyway, but seriously, this system has been a major broken feature forever. It allows for MPK easily and safely for the caster/RNG.
"
That's all for now. I'm looking forward to contributing each time you ask a question. I've seen so much in this game that goes so wrong. I've always wanted to see an open dialog like this begin. Honestly Alla should create a forum by itself where only Ahkore can make new topics. And no one can post except for Alla reps and him, but where anyone can reply. This forum could be the start of this community getting its opportunity to talk directly to not just one rep but several who could come to talk about all kinds of issues.
I realize that's offtopic but just a little note to start off this post <3
Ok, first a responce to your suggestions:
Ahkore wrote:
"Make it so monsters trained to the zone do not aggro until they've walked back to their original starting point!"
Problem: 0 accountability for training a zone, and a whole world of abuse. Consider this:
Bastok's "Escort for Hire" quest requires that you bring Olavia safely inside. It would not be beyond a player to begin this quest, then have his friends train the zones with all the mobs they can. This opens the quest to massive abuse and endless interruption of leveling.
And this:
We will use CN again because I can forsee this happening very easily there. A player is in the lower section, where the Exo room and Strange Apparatus are. His job is THF and he has flee up. He gets two Soldier Crawlers by accident, but doesn't see until they reach the party. The party takes on one, leaving him to zone the link. THF uses flee and pulls the crawler to zone, linking the majority of the crawlers on the way. Now every player must sit and wait for the train to return the mobs to their spots, even if they can't die from the Soldier's agg.
Trains are sadly a fact of the game, and making them non-aggro just to avoid MPK will do nothing.
Ahkore wrote:
"AoE damage should not affect players in other parties not engaged in the battle with the monster that initiated the AoE attack!"
Problem: This will not end the reason why MPK occurs at the HNM spawns. Why? Because they players will simply sit inches from the HNM and wait for any sign of a wipe and steal it. It makes no sense. AoE SHOULD be AoE. It helps prevent people from just standing there waiting on the death of the people fighting the mob.
Ahkore wrote:
"
Suggestion: Released BST pets shouldn't aggro other people!
"
Problem: This doesn't resolve BST MPK. It just gives them a great way to grief parties without having to worry about any unsightly accidents.
As was said earlier, you should be asking WHY MPK happens, not HOW to stop it. The best way to stop something is to find its root cause and solve that.
So, here's a...
"
Suggestion: Make EVERY HNM a forced, instanced, BCNM-style fight. Sound crazy? Bear with me. The major reason you see MPK around these mobs is because the drops are insanely valuable. Now I realize making them more available means you'd have to give into seeing a lot of players with items that you wish they could not obtain. By that I mean you prefer that "Elite" items be something special and rare, rather than every single person on server walking around wearing a Sha'ir Manteel, a Joyouse, and a Kraken Club in their for-show-only bazaar.
However, let me explain how the instance would work. First, the pop of the instance would still be the same as a normal mob spawn: It would pop X amount of time after the last death. However, the difference would be that the player must either trade or examine a ??? at a random spot. At that time, ONLY those present within the alliance would be given the right to enter a special arena to fight the monster. Yes, that means no two-alliance monster parties unless you impliment some kind of extended alliance system (which you could, I don't know).
This ends that version of MPK. Since you could have the ??? pop anywhere in the spawn area it would still keep up the competition for the point. ALSO! Those involved would be flagged to be UNABLE to enter the spot for 3 DAYS! This prevents monopolization of the spawn by any group.
IF the party dies to the mob, they are given the standard attempted raise time before being spit out and the spot of the ???. ALSO a 2 hour time limit would be imposed. This prevents people from just holding a mob forever. You could put a 1 hour cap (since they go into overdrive mode then) but honestly leave well enough alone. If the PT gets to 1 hour, let the mob thrash them hard.
"
"
Another Suggestion: Actually investigate calls. Honestly GM's have become little more than a kind ear to problems, as nothing is ever done. I realize this is hard, because if a group of people decide to get someone in trouble it would be easy to send countless GM calls on one person to blacken their name. However, I just feel the system as it stands does not punish a player for MPKing someone out of spite or malice. You cannot stop that spite or malice from occuring, however there should be some way to track a user's behavior and create a "criminal record" of sorts to basically show their desire to MPK.
I've had someone out and out say to me that what they did was attempt to kill my party. This person was not jailed nor were they banned. Often it's because it takes so long to get a call that the offending PK has safely exited a zone long before the GM contacts us.
Perhaps some system of priority needs to be made so that MPKs are dealt with quickly.
"
"
Suggestion: Follow the suggestion made by several posts. Bound mobs attack no one but their claimed owner and their PT. For that matter, any mobs nearby that are unclaimed should link and hunt down that person. I believe that's how it currently works anyway, but seriously, this system has been a major broken feature forever. It allows for MPK easily and safely for the caster/RNG.
"
That's all for now. I'm looking forward to contributing each time you ask a question. I've seen so much in this game that goes so wrong. I've always wanted to see an open dialog like this begin. Honestly Alla should create a forum by itself where only Ahkore can make new topics. And no one can post except for Alla reps and him, but where anyone can reply. This forum could be the start of this community getting its opportunity to talk directly to not just one rep but several who could come to talk about all kinds of issues.
#194
Nov 03 2005 at 6:33 PM
I've always thought that Sneak should be a condition that prevents things from aggroing by movement, and Deodorize should prevent things from aggro by standing still.
Yes, I know that still/moving aggro doesn't exist in the game, but I think that it would be a better system than the "sound" aggro that's in the game currently. You can be standing perfectly still next to a sound aggro mob and making no noise and they'll attack, but you can do noisy things like /clap or cast spells and they won't think anything of it.
But, I digress.
I like the aggro-free @ zone idea. I've seen many people get mauled upon zoning due to a train being there, before the player can even react. To me this isn't fair at all.
As has been said many times already, the Bind glitch needs to be fixed. I've had my Sneak removed due to running past a bound crab in Kuftal, which caused 3 more crabs to attack and kill me. There's no way this was an intended feature of the game.
Mobs should be able to link, but there should be a limit, to avoid mass training at zones. After all, we cannot fit more than 6 people into a party (or 18 into an alliance). Is it really fair for someone to be able to bring 30+ linked bats or crawlers to a zone?
Various 24+ HNMs either need to spawn more often, or their drops need to be made acquirable through some other means, to limit the stupid drama and MPKing that happens at these camps. These HNMs should be made available to all that have prepared themselves for the chance to fight it. I'd imagine that when King Behemoth was first introduced to the game, he was left alone for great periods of time due to people not being prepared to fight it. Now, he doesn't even appear without his name being red/purple anymore. To me, this isn't what HNMs should be all about. They should be feared and challenging to fight; they should not have people sitting around waiting for him to appear "sometime during the next 3 hours". If they simply appeared more often it would limit frustration among the various LSs, RMT or otherwise.
Yes, I know that still/moving aggro doesn't exist in the game, but I think that it would be a better system than the "sound" aggro that's in the game currently. You can be standing perfectly still next to a sound aggro mob and making no noise and they'll attack, but you can do noisy things like /clap or cast spells and they won't think anything of it.
But, I digress.
I like the aggro-free @ zone idea. I've seen many people get mauled upon zoning due to a train being there, before the player can even react. To me this isn't fair at all.
As has been said many times already, the Bind glitch needs to be fixed. I've had my Sneak removed due to running past a bound crab in Kuftal, which caused 3 more crabs to attack and kill me. There's no way this was an intended feature of the game.
Mobs should be able to link, but there should be a limit, to avoid mass training at zones. After all, we cannot fit more than 6 people into a party (or 18 into an alliance). Is it really fair for someone to be able to bring 30+ linked bats or crawlers to a zone?
Various 24+ HNMs either need to spawn more often, or their drops need to be made acquirable through some other means, to limit the stupid drama and MPKing that happens at these camps. These HNMs should be made available to all that have prepared themselves for the chance to fight it. I'd imagine that when King Behemoth was first introduced to the game, he was left alone for great periods of time due to people not being prepared to fight it. Now, he doesn't even appear without his name being red/purple anymore. To me, this isn't what HNMs should be all about. They should be feared and challenging to fight; they should not have people sitting around waiting for him to appear "sometime during the next 3 hours". If they simply appeared more often it would limit frustration among the various LSs, RMT or otherwise.
#195
Nov 03 2005 at 6:38 PM
Yay, time for me to jump on the bandwagon.
I heard something similar to this, but not quite in a way I'd agree with, so here goes:
Suggestion:If a player kites a mob to the zone, the creature should zone along with him/her until they reach a city (Jueno, Windurst, etc), a town (Selbina, Mhaura, Khazam), or other "protected" zone like Norg. As soon as the creature has left the zone, it begins the respawn countdown clock.
If a player manages to make it back to town, two things will occur: First, the mob will disappear as it has, in effect, been handled by the local authorities. Second, the beastmen Conquest score for the zone will increase an amount equal to half that given when a player dies since the mob(s) have successfully chased out the offending player(s).
This particular method will help tremendously in the Crawler's Nest, where regularly clouds of crawlers get pulled to zone and players, unaware of the dangers inside, get killed constantly.
I heard something similar to this, but not quite in a way I'd agree with, so here goes:
Suggestion:If a player kites a mob to the zone, the creature should zone along with him/her until they reach a city (Jueno, Windurst, etc), a town (Selbina, Mhaura, Khazam), or other "protected" zone like Norg. As soon as the creature has left the zone, it begins the respawn countdown clock.
If a player manages to make it back to town, two things will occur: First, the mob will disappear as it has, in effect, been handled by the local authorities. Second, the beastmen Conquest score for the zone will increase an amount equal to half that given when a player dies since the mob(s) have successfully chased out the offending player(s).
This particular method will help tremendously in the Crawler's Nest, where regularly clouds of crawlers get pulled to zone and players, unaware of the dangers inside, get killed constantly.
#196
Nov 03 2005 at 6:40 PM
Well just a suggestion just make all NMs or HNMs so that either when you atack them you/party/alliance go into some sort of special area to fight it where no one else can touch you with MPKed mobs
or make all NMs BCNMs so that you have to full fill certain requirements to get the mob and the drop is not 100%
especialy the HNMs i think this would realy help
this is just my opinion of a way to prevent MPKing all together
also make all NM and HNM drops ra/ex so there would be no reason fo gil sellers to mpk you and make it so if the mob has been attacked by a PC and that person/party/alliance dies then the mob will not drop if fought by some one else, except maybe when it comes to a big HNM that they will drop even if attacked by some one else after the party/alliance has been killed
or make all NMs BCNMs so that you have to full fill certain requirements to get the mob and the drop is not 100%
especialy the HNMs i think this would realy help
this is just my opinion of a way to prevent MPKing all together
also make all NM and HNM drops ra/ex so there would be no reason fo gil sellers to mpk you and make it so if the mob has been attacked by a PC and that person/party/alliance dies then the mob will not drop if fought by some one else, except maybe when it comes to a big HNM that they will drop even if attacked by some one else after the party/alliance has been killed
#197
Nov 03 2005 at 6:41 PM
While people are making lots of suggestions to avoid unintentional MPK, I think that intentional MPK is the more serious problem, so solutions should focus on preventing that. Intentional MPK is a crime in the FFXI world, so we need to consider the three important components: means, motive, and opportunity. (I've been watching CSI and Law & Order a lot lately; can you tell?)
So, I think any good solution to MPK issues should strike at one of those three elements; removing either the means, motive, or opportunity to MPK should eliminate the act, hopefully. I've seen a lot of suggestions I like, so I'll try not to repeat them. Here's one of my own.
Suggestion: Eliminate the opportunity to MPK by visibly policing NM and HNM pops where MPK is frequent. I don't mean that every spawn has to be policed, just occasionally to remind zealous players that their actions aren't always unobserved. While some people suggest invisible GMs, I would also add that visible presence might be appropriate (possibly once the NM has spawned.) The goal is not necessarily to see who MPKs and ban them; rather, I think it should be to dissuade people who are normally good but have one bad day and might make a poor decision otherwise. A visible GM could stop the problem before it starts.
So, I think any good solution to MPK issues should strike at one of those three elements; removing either the means, motive, or opportunity to MPK should eliminate the act, hopefully. I've seen a lot of suggestions I like, so I'll try not to repeat them. Here's one of my own.
Suggestion: Eliminate the opportunity to MPK by visibly policing NM and HNM pops where MPK is frequent. I don't mean that every spawn has to be policed, just occasionally to remind zealous players that their actions aren't always unobserved. While some people suggest invisible GMs, I would also add that visible presence might be appropriate (possibly once the NM has spawned.) The goal is not necessarily to see who MPKs and ban them; rather, I think it should be to dissuade people who are normally good but have one bad day and might make a poor decision otherwise. A visible GM could stop the problem before it starts.
#198
Nov 03 2005 at 6:42 PM
Suggestion #1 I like the idea about mobs not aggroing until they get back to their original spawn area. That would cut MPK in half all in its own, not to mention also shine some grace on Beastmaster's reputation on nonintentional MPKS.
Suggestion #2 The chances of getting away from an aggro should be increased. Almost 90% of the time, if you're in Kuftal Tunnel area exceeding your level, if you get aggroed in the middle of the zone, it's basically a death sentence. The more I think, it's sort of a good element, but it can get other parties killed. I think it should be that if you visibly lose sight of the mob off of your screen, it should stop the chase and head back. Sounds a little easy the more I think about it, but hey, maybe the guys at Square-Enix can build on it.
Thanks for taking time to read my suggestions.
Suggestion #2 The chances of getting away from an aggro should be increased. Almost 90% of the time, if you're in Kuftal Tunnel area exceeding your level, if you get aggroed in the middle of the zone, it's basically a death sentence. The more I think, it's sort of a good element, but it can get other parties killed. I think it should be that if you visibly lose sight of the mob off of your screen, it should stop the chase and head back. Sounds a little easy the more I think about it, but hey, maybe the guys at Square-Enix can build on it.
Thanks for taking time to read my suggestions.
#199
Nov 03 2005 at 6:46 PM
I sorta wanna go with 1-2 never got killed by a bst pet, but those trains really kill me ><, and the AoEs are a real pain too
#200
Nov 03 2005 at 6:47 PM
Quote:
If someone zones a mob of any kind in a zone, why not have them zone out as if they're going after the character that zoned them. Such as someone brongs a rumble crawler to the zone in the crawler's next, that thing will ling with every crawler on the way to the zone. Now when the player zones, if the mobs still have hate twords them they run out of the zone. The player will end up in Roleberry fields (spelled horribly, I know) and the crawlers just kind of disapear and reaspan a few moments after running out of the zone.
In the words of Peter Griffin, "That's the smartest thing I've ever heard anyone say about anything, ever."
Not only would this take care of one method of intentional MPKing, it would also take care of inconsiderate people who zone massive trains, by intent or by accident, and totally clear out a popular exp zone (Garlaige Citadel if the first place to come to mind, but Crawlers' Nest and Gustav Tunnel are also good examples) for upwards of a halfhour.
Edited, Thu Nov 3 19:03:58 2005 by Balagren
#201
Nov 03 2005 at 6:48 PM
Scholar
40 posts
I agree with not letting the monster aggro until it goes back to it's spawn point. I also agree with a monster's AoE attack not affecting ones not in that party unless they do the shout for help thing. I am always being put to sleep by a mandragora's dream flower while on a chocobo going through kazham, so it is quite annoying.
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