Vana'diel Bestiary: Absolute Virtue  

This thing looks soo cool.. he's so strong, i wonder if they will have to gimp him to make it easier to kill.

You know, I think this wouldnt be such a big deal if a JP ls killed it in the same fashion. Wonder how all the tactics used for all the other "Impossible" Mobs were created? A tactic is a tactic, wheather it was there onm purpose or a glitch. More Importantly, don't you think that Flare or tornado or spells of that sort taking ONE shadow from a blink tank or anyone using shadows is kinda shady too? See there are allot of oddities in ffxi, this is just a big one. Congrats for whoppin that *** though, think that SE will really think about the mobs they create now...like, realistic drop rates, lol.

Regardless of how AV was defeated, is that not what we all do in the game? We defeat mobs and have a fun time doing so.

That is my 2 cents, thanks.

Baude the SMN

Okie dokie, first things first...

The big question here is obviously, "was this win by Apathy legit? Or were they simply exploiting a bug in the game in order to become the first people to defeat the undefeatable?"

Looking at the "cheating" side of the equation:
Yes, this is a cheat, in a few aspects.
1)Absolute Virtue was unable to attack Apathy because of something in the game that Apathy did not cause. To all you people using analogies to discredit this argument, here this now: this fight cannot be compared to kiting a monster. When you are kiting a monster, it still has every ability and means to attack you. It requires work on your part to put distance between yourself and the monster. Kiting is a viable strategy, and to use an argument (out of spite) that kiting is cheating is very foolish. Also, this is not like silencing a worm an using ranged attacks/magic to defeat it. When you silence a worm, you use a spell in your ******* (which you have complete control over) in order to inhibit the worm's attacks. And by simply using ranged attacks, you are still in range of the worm's magic attacks (especially post-patch). Once again, this strategy against a worm is a legit tactic, and should be treated as such. And finally, to the person who actually went as far as to say tanking with a NIN is cheating--that, too, is a viable tactic which involves using different abilities in our ******** which we have complete control over. I'll make this clear... there is NO analogy that can be used to compare this fight to any other tactic used against any other monster.
2) Most, if not all, monsters have the ability to find their way over/around obstacles to close the distance between them and their attackers. We've all seen monsters climb obstacles that cannot be climbed by PCs... this happens for a reason--so that nobody can fight a defenseless monster that stands there and cannot do anything back (much like what happened here, no?) In other instances, the monster will not directly climb up a wall, but will instead find the shortest way around. The best example I can think of occurs in Ghelsba Outpost. If you exit the cave where the funguars are, and shoot an arrow down the cliff at an orc, the orc will run all the way to the slope that leads up to where you are standing (which puts it out of the range of your attacks anyways). Nonetheless, the orc will find a way to get to you, no matter what, and will not sit down by the edge of the cliff, allowing you to fire at it unscathed.

Now, for reasons why this would not be a cheat:
1) Well, it is a visible wall... a wall that was meant to be there, no doubt. No one should argue that someone is using the terrain to their advantage in order to gain the upper hand in a fight. (Keep in mind, however, that this argument is negated by my argument #2 above)
2) Many people believe this is how SE intended the monster to be beaten. Others believe it is not a cheat simply because "GMs actually cheered Apathy on while the fight was going on." Unfortunately, neither of these arguments are very valid. First of all, none of us (not even the people who have fought Absolute Virtue many times) have ANY clue how SE meant for this monster to be defeated. We will NEVER know unless SE actually comes out and says "Ok, we admit it... the wall was put there for AV fighting purposes afterall..." That's never going happen. =/ Secondly, as for the GMs that were cheering them on: GMs are not SE... their opinions really don't mean that much when it comes to situations like this. People say the GMs would have "told them to fight it the right way" if it was a cheat. I dont actually believe this is true. GMs actually cannot tell people HOW to fight against a monster. All they can do is tell you to continue fighting against the monsters (in order to prevent grief tactics). However, since Absolute Virtue was a monster that was not only a forced spawn (technically... I mean its a spawn of a forced spawn... whatever) and also the fact that this is a monster that there was no "competition" for at the time, the GMs really didnt have any authority over how the fight went. The only time I can imagine GMs could have even done anything would be if this was a more obvious glitch... (seeing as how its arguable as to whether or not this was even a glitch at all)

Obviously, there are probably other aspects that I havent gone into, but I'm sure the ones I mentioned above have pretty high priority. I'm sure you all know of your own.

Now, as to what I believe... I'm very ambivalent about this fight; its a delicate situation. I congratulated Apathy the day they killed Absolute Virtue. Just the same, I was dissapointed to see that the first kill wasn't really anything...exciting (for lack of a better word).
Perhaps it's better if I put it this way: I have respect for Apathy and what they have accomplished. However, once a linkshell defeats Absolute Virtue head on (whether it be tanked with a NIN, or kited >_>) they will gain far more respect than Apathy did... from me, and probably everyone else as well. Some might even go so far as to say THAT linkshell was really the first to defeat AV, and not Apathy.

I look forward to seeing how SE handles this situation. Personally, I hope they get rid of the wall, or at least give Absolute Virtue a way to get around the wall (or the Draw-In ability... which I think he shouldve had in the first place).

I also hope that in the future, SE comes up with even more difficult monsters that seem unbeatable. FFXI really needs something that requires EVERYTHING in the fight to go perfectly in order to simply stand a chance at winning. It gives us all a goal to get better and perfect how we play the game.

When my time comes to fight AV, I won't allow my linkshell to fight it while standing behind such an obstacle. Some would consider that kind of win dishonorable... I would just consider it to be not as much of a challenge as I wish it had been, which is why I play the game in the end... for the challenge.

-- [Lionheart]

Edited, Wed Apr 5 01:50:31 2006

hay is it just me or does AV have utters....
i know kinda odd to say but come on!!!
he looks like a mutated cow wit claws

/rant on

Speaking From Experience
(0/7 on AV)

I would like to give my esteemed congrats to the team who have finally toppled the Nightmare known as Absolute Virtue.

Though their victory may have been achieved through a tactic that rendered AV helpless...Well, to a certain degree, (He can still cast Meteor...Believe me...I've gotten slammed through the "Wall" by it)

It is still a tactic that if executed improperly will result in death. So unless you have faught AV sit down and shut up. 90% of you havnt faught him and therefor have no say...If you HAVE faught him and believe that their victory is tainted, then have obviously never taken a true run for the sole purpose of beating him. He simply popped and subsequently raped you. Yes, maybe it was a an exploit, but given that GMs were there cheering them on, AT THAT POINT IN TIME it wasnt. If SE decides it was, it will be fixed here when ToAU comes out. Until then please try and understand that they used the tool that was presented to them, its ingenuity, not cheating. But until that time that SE says it was an EXPLOIT, its not, so be happy for them and congragulate them, as they are THE 1ST to do what was thought impossible. And if anything they gave us some valuable info on our adversary. Nuff said.

/rant off


Edited, Tue Apr 4 14:17:49 2006

And boohoo also. You all are so righteous spouting your "They cheated." "They exploited this or that." "They beat it before we did." Tough.

Before you all get all high and mighty waving that righteous paintbrush around, think about how you have fought all your fights and won all your battles and remember this. Using NIN as a tank is an exploit too. NIN was never ment to be a tank job. This has been hashed over many times in the NIN and MAIN forums so I won't detail it all out here again.

Those of you who are using the "not letting it fight you fairly is cheating" philosophy, then...Kiting is an exploit too. You're not fighting the mobs straight on(it is chasing 1 or 2 people around while everybody else hits it from range with magic and stuff) therefore you are cheating. Try fighting Sky gods and some of the other Land gods w/o kiting. How does your @$$ look on that platter they just handed you?

Maat fights anybody? Who all has piled on the negative equips before going in? Who has fought Maat "fair and square"? <Looks around> I thought so.

Artifact Armor? NM dropped equipment? Did you get all your AF in a party with people of a level equal to the piece you were getting? Do you fight NMs with a job close to their level?

Genkai? Did you do all of your Genkai mission w/o higher level help?

Did you do Divine Might with all BLMs?

And before you all say it, remember...an exploit is an exploit. You cannot say that using 1 exploit is ok while using another 1 is cheating. It is either all wrong or none of it is wrong.

The only thing that can be considered cheating is code hacking the game, with external 3rd party tools, to get it to do things that are not part of it's programming.

Have people been trying to find ways to beat AV for a while? Yep
Was fighting AV from behind a wall or while it was stuck in a wall exploiting something? Yes it was.
Are people upset because they didn't think of it first? You bet they are.

Saying it was cheating simply because it was a NA HNMLS that did it is a weak arguement and is just sounding more and more like sour grapes. JP and EU HNMLS exploit glitches and weaknesses just as much as anybody else. Would as many of you be pissing and moaning if it would have been a JP HNMLS that did it instead?

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." If you are somebody who has fought every battle you have faced in this game fair and square, then rant on all you want. However, the other 99.999% of you just need to shut your pie holes and get over it.

Edited, Mon Apr 3 16:00:48 2006

AV was killed while it was unable to fight back.
You all say it's unfair. But what about those who kill worms? Worms can't move and no one gets on a person's back about that. You may say Worms can cast, but what if you silence them? That makes it impossible for them to attack. Correct?
This is basically the same.. They killed a worm(in this case a big nasty one that kills people) that couldn't attack back..

Remember the Silenced Worm... Remember..

Humans: 1, FFXI: 0

.... THIS IS THE STUPIDEST POST I HAVE EVER READ.

1.) Who gives a damn if they won. They beat it in a very poor fashion, and I wouldn't be surprised if it LOWERED the reputation NA HNMLSs have.

2.) The reason they won is because it could not fight back. I am supposed to congratulate them on this?!

3.) I'm sorry, I have much larger dreams than beating some pixelated monster. Sitting there and nuking it can be done by ANYONE with a large enough force... when someone beats it WITHOUT glitching to win, then they REALLY deserve the praise.

There's such a huge argument over whether or not this thing was beaten legitimately. Personally, I don't see any way that it can be out and out defeated head-on; then again, I've been accused of being short-sighted on more than one occasion.

My point is this: whether or not it was a 'real' kill means exactly jack @#$%. The fact remains that Apathy devised an effing ingenius way of taking down the Biggest, Baddest, Meanest SOB Square-Enix has ever created.

Give credit where credit is due! :D