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How long to wait for people with d/c problems?Follow

#1 Sep 20 2004 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Okay, I did something this weekend I'm not 100% certain I'm proud of, and I would like some of your comments on whether I should be ashamed of myself or not.

In my LS Clan (which I run) we have been trying to do mission 3-3 (Appointment to Jeuno) since August but without any luck. The high people who needed it (myself and a few others) were rarely on together at the same time with enough of a window to do it, the lower people who needed it were taking a long time levelling up to where we'd feel comfortable dragging them along for such a harried journey. We had several failed attempts where we couldn't get enough people to go and a few false starts (for example, one of our members started Windy's 3-2 twice).

Long story short, this last weekend we were determined to do it come **** or highwater. After an hour of organizing, we had a good little crew. Several people from our LS, several others who needed the mission, and even a high level WHM to help (64WHM). We set out (only a few of us had maps, but oh well) and ascended the tower (actually, making record time). Only one death at the hands of a nasty Spirit, which our WHM prompty raised.

The problem is, one of our LS members kept disconnecting. All the way up, he would d/c and we would have to pause and wait for him. We didn't mind really, but our high-level WHM had a static he needed to get to and time was ticking.

We make it to the top, fight the NM, and got enough keys on the first kill for everyone in the group that needed one (obviously, we had two people who had already done the mission). Everyone lots... except this one guy that kept d/c'ing. We notice on the map he is still back at the staircase (and is only level 32, so he'd get slaughtered trying catch up with us). We call for him to lot anyway, and he promptly vanishes from our party.

He had d/c'ed sometime before the fight.

So we wait around for him, re-invite him, escort him to the room, and wait for the next spawn (they say the spawn time is 10 minutes, but I was personally able to fit 3 Chakra's in there before he spawned again, so I'd say it was closer to 15).

The next spawn happens, and he d/c's again. We repeat (wait, invite, wait for spawn) and he d/c's in the middle of the fight.

He kept d/c'ing every single fight. We waited around for at least 45-60 minutes trying to get his damned key, and he kept d/c'ing just when the fight started. We fought that thing 4 times, with a 5 being taken by a party near us while we waited for him to reconnect.

Finally, after the last time, we realize we really needed to get our 64WHM back to his static (they had already patiently waited an hour for him). Plus, two of our Clan members had work the next morning and it was already very late for them (they were East Coast, while I am in the West). So we gave him another five minutes, then continued on without him.

We he finally did rejoin, he was ****** (understandably so... we left him stranded at the top of the tower with no way to kill the NM and no way to get back down short of Death Warping). We knew there was another Alliance on the way up, so we advised him to wait for them and join them when they showed up, but he just swore at us (the whole LS) and disconnected.

So, I feel bad about this and all... but what could we have done? His connection wasn't reliable enough to stay on long enough to get the key, and we had already put around an hour into trying to work around his connection problems.

Thus, my questions are these:

1) Were we wrong to leave him up there? Should I, as LS leader, put my foot down when everyone else wanted to go? (Even if it meant I would be alone up there waiting for him and unable to really help as I was a 36 MNK).

2) How long to you have to wait for people with d/c problems? If you are fighting a quest/mission NM like us, is 45-60 minutes adequate, or should we have given him even longer?

PS: This person was also someone who had already caused two false starts for the mission by accepting 3-2 twice after he had already done it. This is why everyone else in the party wasn't really willing to wait for him any more.

Edited, Mon Sep 20 12:11:39 2004 by vismaior
#2 Sep 20 2004 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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1) Were we wrong to leave him up there? Should I, as LS leader, put my foot down when everyone else wanted to go? (Even if it meant I would be alone up there waiting for him and unable to really help as I was a 36 MNK)
I would have done my best to escort him out, at the very least. A BLM should have been able to cast Warp II or Escape to quickly get him out of there. It's up to him though. I'd just ask him the next time he managed to stay connected for 5 minutes. "I'm sorry, but we have to leave. Do you want to stay here, or would you like an Escape/Warp II?"

As a MNK, there's not much you could do. I would try to get the party to stick around to get him out, or at least some of the mages for Sneak / Invisible, Escape, etc. Beyond that, there's not much you could be expected to do. Getting yourself killed in a hopeless effort to get your friend out doesn't really help anyone.

Quote:
2) How long to you have to wait for people with d/c problems? If you are fighting a quest/mission NM like us, is 45-60 minutes adequate, or should we have given him even longer?
This is a pretty situational thing. It depends on how much the person has put into the group, what you're doing, etc. In the situation you described, I think you were more than patient enough. You tried several times to get the key for him. You did your part.

If I'm having connection issues, I usually expect my party to wait 5-10 minutes for me to return. If I drop out more than once every couple hours, I usually offer to leave. Someone who can't stay connected, or who keeps getting serious lag, is of no use to any party. As long as I'm not getting frustrated, I'll stay if the party wants me. But if they want to replace me, I have no problems with that. I'm not helping anyone if I'm watching POL error messages, instead of swinging my axe, or casting my spells.
#3 Sep 20 2004 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I have had a lot of people disconnect and I usually try to wait at least 5 to 10 minutes to see if he comes back. However, DCing more than three or four times for me would be reason to exclude him. I don't blame your pty for wanting to leave. 3-3 takes long enough as it is and for some people time is a little more valuable than that.

It's not his fault, true, but if he is going to pty he's going to have to figure out the problem and solve it because it is rude to have so much downtime for the other players (like your 64 whm) who might have other things going on.

A shame, perhaps, but such is life on FFXI--I'm sure he'll be able to find another pty to help him out.


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#4 Sep 20 2004 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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When I played everquest I was in a raiding guild, though I know this isn't exactly the same thing. Many times there were 30-40 people gathered to take out specific targets, and it basically came down to: If you want to play at this level of gameplay, you need to have a fast computer and a reliable connection.

Now there are times where we were willing to sit for 5-10 minutes waiting for someone to re-connect, but under no circumstances would we have waited for someone through multiple disconnects. People needed to take responsibility for their own survival in these types of encounters, so the equivalent of prism powders and sneak oils, or at least scrolls of instant warp would be required materials as well.

I understand that there's a difference in these two situations (mainly levels) but the mindset needs to be the same when there's a large amount of people waiting on any single individual.
#5 Sep 20 2004 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I would have done my best to escort him out, at the very least. A BLM should have been able to cast Warp II or Escape to quickly get him out of there.


Yeah, we didn't have a BLM. Our 64WHM was subbing WAR (he wanted Provoke so he could pull mobs away from us, but everything was merely EP to me on the way up, so it wasn't really necessary), and the closest we had to a BLM was this person who kept d/c'ing (he was a DRK).

I would estimate we spent and hour and a half getting there, and another hour fighting the thing for his key. During which, I'd guess he d/c'ed probably 15 times. The last time we actually did wait another five minutes for him to reconnect, and one of our clan members was chatting with him in AIM, so I can only assume he knew the group was getting antsy (unless this person didn't tell him what was going on).
#6 Sep 20 2004 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
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A shame, perhaps, but such is life on FFXI--I'm sure he'll be able to find another pty to help him out.


Yeah I promised him I'd go back and accompany him on it later when the next batch of LSers are ready for the mission (we have another three in the queue who need the mission and will be ready within a week or two). But he was too ****** and I doubt he even read what I said to him.

Truthfully, it was a long trek but I really did enjoy it. I wouldn't mind doing it again to help out a fellow LSer. I just hope he solves his connection troubles by then.
#7 Sep 20 2004 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
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It's really hard to give a set amount of time to allow for D/C's as it varies per situation.

Generally if it is an experience party I will give 5-10 minutes and then replace. In the event of repeated d/c that is happening often (I don't mind once and hour or so) I usually give the benefit of the doubt in the first several d/c's but after that I check with the rest of the party and see how they feel. If everyone agrees they need to be replaced I will wait until they log back on advise of one more try but let them know (politely) if they disconnect again they will be replaced. Generally people that are having repetetive connection problems will either give up and not log back on or respectfully bow out of the party out of fairness to others.

In your case however I feel you were more than patient. If he knew he was having connection problems prior to going then he should have waited until another time. If the problems did not begin until after you started ascending the tower then it is really a tough call as you don't want to leave him alone where he can be killed when he reconnects but nobody wants to have to stop every few minutes and wait especially with sneak/invis needing to be cast repeatedly.

The one thing I would have done different is, rather than leave him there wait for him to reconnect a final time and advise him that you have to get going. Have a blm warp him home or have the whm teleport him if the whm was one of the ones who did not need a key. Then just advise him people are willing to help when he isn't not having so many problems.
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#8 Sep 20 2004 at 11:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Have a blm warp him home or have the whm teleport him if the whm was one of the ones who did not need a key.


Yeah, I didn't even think of having the 64WHM tele him back out. Drat! That was stupid.
#9 Sep 20 2004 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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An hour and a half to get up there? Plus you waited all that time for him? Meh you did as much as you could have. You had a bunch of people with you needing the quest, people that had other plans, and others that had to, more importantly, go to bed for work in the morning.

People are always doing runs up the tower. He'll get his chance again. Sounds like you and the people there bent over backwards for this guy.
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#10 Sep 20 2004 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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If I'm having connection issues, I usually expect my party to wait 5-10 minutes for me to return. If I drop out more than once every couple hours, I usually offer to leave.
I agree completely. I use dial-up with a PS2, so I get some bad lag and I D/C almost every day. 10 minutes is the longest I expect a party to wait for me ... if I can't get back on in that amount of time, I'm not likely to make it back on at all. And as the lady said ... if I'm lagging too badly or I D/C more than once in a party, I offer to let them replace me.

IMO, the "contract" made when players group to perform quests or missions is to give their legitimate "best efforts" to accomplish the task for all, not necessarily a promise that everyone will complete the quest. No one can guarantee performance ... unexpected problems arise.

Sounds like your party gave its best efforts to get him his key.
#11 Sep 20 2004 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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People are always doing runs up the tower. He'll get his chance again. Sounds like you and the people there bent over backwards for this guy.


Yeah, but he was in the Clan's LS... so we were willing to do it. That's what made it so sticky.

He is really ****** off, BTW. I have since found out that he blisted a couple people from the clan... I havent been on since then so I have no idea if he blisted me to.
#12 Sep 20 2004 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
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You've been adequately patient already in that situation.
You could do nothing...even if you did stay...except just to make sure he isn't lonely when he gets back.

Maybe this opinion is too personal, but if I were him, I would have been more than willing to be left behind. I have 4 reasons;
1. The high level WHM had party waiting.
2. I HATE to be the burden of my friend, in any kind of situation.
3. I would be very upset at myself and my connection. And while it's the connection itself, I know I can't fix anything. So I might as well just bid a farewell and log out from the game.
4. I am confident that I am patient enough to wait around, in case my connection becomes better later on, until someone who comes by agree to help me out with the NM key-dropper. So, without my friends, I would still give it a try.

While I understand him why he was upset, it's not your fault at all. Can your MNK Tele-taxi him out? No. Can your MNK WarpII him or Escape him out? No. Can your MNK cast Sneak/Invis on him while you proceed on the mission? No. Can your MNK plow through all the monsters to clear the path for him? Lv36? Probably no.

As for your 2nd question, how long would I wait for a d/c friend...it depends on the situation.

For my LS friends (most of which are also my real life friends too):
If we're doing non-soloable mission like the one you did, I would always wait for him unless he told me he give up.
Because I'm incredibly patient in waiting for people who have Connection Lost problem (I used to use 56k dial-up so I know what they're suffering, and sometimes in my country, even a DSL connection can ***** up too)

But this can only be done when;
1. I don't have time-limit pressure, like having a high level helper who needs to leave as soon as possible.
2. The d/c person shows intention in coming back. Even if he disconnect every 5 minutes, it doesn't make me change my mind. I just need to know that he would come back for sure, then I can always wait.

This also applies to LS-only exp party too. We always wait. The record was 1 hour 20 minutes. But we didn't just wait around, we killed weaker monsters for less exp, or for money, items, for fun, and to kill time.

But, when there is any other player involved, I always inform them that the person is having connection trouble, and will be back as soon as he can. Then, upon the agreement of all party members, I would wait for 15 minutes maximum. More than 15 minutes will waste other people's time.


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