nins to overate or not to overateFollow

There role is tanking. When they ding 37 they get their 2nd utsusemi, which allows them to blink tank and almost never get hit. This makes the mages roles a lot easier and reduces downtime more than plds (not saying pld < nin) or anything. which makes them quite favorable. Also, because they don't get hit. They're very favorable in pts who have uber set up (like a 3 rng pt) so they can take on higher lvl mobs for greater exp. hmm. i think on the high end, not too sure but they're ideal for kiting mobs in hnm event.

Nins can also play the DD role if they can afford it. Throwing can do mass dmg if there throwing skill is lvld. Nin's also do good with /blm I seen a nin doing 300+ in CN with his ichi and ni spells with blm sub.

Ill take Ninjas over paladins most of the time depending on the party. If they are good with the Ni's then they are excellent and if their ninjitsu is near capped its greatto keep hate.
I mean one time I was in a Manaburn Party BLM BLM BLM RDM NIN BRD(me) and the Ninja could hold hate with 3nukers. A PLD wouldnt work in that party.

I always prefered PLD tank because it was easier for myself to tred the hate line. I rarely had to hold back (Least favorite thing ever!) with a PLD tank.

But I also see it as, its easy (relativly) to be a good PLD. It's hard to be a GREAT PLD, but I see very few great PLDs because it often isn't necessary to be great.

There are a lot of so-so NINs. I personally think it is much harder to be a good NIN than it is it be a good PLD. Which is why GREAT NINs are more commen than GREAT PLDs.

With a great NIN I don't hold back at all and only take hate off a particularly damaging WS, or when I close a good Skillchain.



Bodytemp: I'm not dissing DRG, but 40 per hit? What level are you? I hit for 45-60 per fist on EXP mobs.

what your over looking is player skill,

Ive seen alot and done alot of tanking,

An awsome ninja can hold hate as good as an awsome PLD,

and take alot less damage. but the party set up needs to be right, alot of this depends on the skill of the other players also. 99% of all exp pt's are just throw together jobs.

But when you get a group of people together that really know whats going on, and have thought about and put preparations into their job, things work alot diffrently.

The mages and melle play as much part of tanking as the actuall tank does.

If a PLD is hasted and refreshed often they can hold hate better. If a mob is blinded and paralyzed a ninja can tank better.

If a melle uses his head in how he goes about dealing damage both PLD and NIN can tank better.

It all boils down to player skill, and most people rarely ever get to exp with 6 solid players. But when you do it's a work of art

small advice,

PLD's dont like to be reffered to as beeing stuck with ....

Ill remember that time Kirin goes after you or ya need a god tanked. =P

learn to control yourself

PLDs suck. Big Barney wannabes.


(Before all you PLDs that don't know me freak out, I prefer PLD but I can't miss an opportunity to jab at Algar. LoL)

Edited, Fri Jul 15 14:12:10 2005 by LeetFade

i'll take nin over pld in any xp pt, probably cuz i always had great nin's in pt, like natoku he's real good when he's not busy being a tightass oh and braddock is awesome too and some other nins i cant remember names right now. Definitely do not party with Zoome he's some 70+ super noob nin i thought he bought his account but he's just plain dumb with the job. I was partying in Dragon's Aery with him and he was begging for sneak and invis on the way there,i was fine with casting sneak on him cuz oils are expensive but invis too i was like wtf dont you have Tonko:Ichi tools, but i didn't get an answer so i figured maybe he's broke. Then when we actually started fighting he wouldn't even try to tank we thought maybe he might be d/c so we ask him if he's lagging and he says his connection is fine, so i was like damn this nin sucks thinking in my head, a few fights later people start dying each fight everyone is getting mad cuz he wont voke so they sending me tells cuz i was ldr telling me to kick him and stuff. I didn't wanna kick him cuz that's mean and i wouldn't want to be kicked either but the last straw was when he let the whm die and he wouldn't voke the mob so everyone is just using they 2hrs cursing him out and dying, i was the rdm so i got pissed cuz i had to solo the mob took me like 30 mins with some luck to kill the spider and then R1 the whm who was pissed as hell. I had to kick him then and the whm wouldn't raise him, so dont pt with Zoome if you dont want to lose your cool over a game

NIn isnt overated, its just rare to see a truley great NIN tank. I'll take a Great NIN over a great PLD any Day. In order to be a great NIN you must --> spam Ninjitsu spells(enfeebling and elemental), swap Evasion/Enemity Gear, Do a Decent amount of Dmg, Provoke the mob every 30seconds, and keep shadows up at all times. If thats not the hardest job in the game I dont know what is, but I do know that a tank that can hold hate and take very limited dmg is 2nd to none. Now the hard part is finding these great Nins, there like 1 outta every 100 lol

Both NIN and PLD are excellent tanks. I being a PLD won't deny that NIN is a good tank (that might stop after this next patch, or at least decrease their usefullness in the tank slot), but the job is much harder to play correctly.

A mediocre PLD can hold hate better than a mediocre NIN and that is why most players prefer PLD before 73. For a NIN to get past 60, he usually has to be pretty skilled. A PLD is set up to hold hate, or better yet MANAGE IT. A NIN on the other hand is designed to be a back up tank and a support DD. NIN is not great at tanking and not great at DD, but not bad at them either, at least in design. However, with the proper FINESE a NIN can tank extremely well, even though that's not the origional intention of this job. The thing about this though is that it takes skill and an immense amount of skill at that.

The fact is after this next patch, PLD will be the supreme tank. Our high level demand will increase with new hate adjustment on the NIN's shadows. However, the most important factor to any tank is player skill. Nothing, and I mean nothing, will hold hate better than a great PLD. NIN can come close but, but still will not be able to live up to a great PLD. Take whatever you will, but the fact is mediocre is mediocre because by association it means average. And as well all know, most people are just average, and being an average PLD will suffice better than a average NIN.

One thing I've always wondered is if PLDs should boost MP more than HP for EXP PTs, since a cure 3 can usually heal a PLD around 150

Bodytemp I'm glad that you can equal NIN damage without Berserk or attack food. You're a Damage Dealer (DRG) so you should really do more than them. (NIN/WAR can berserk and use attack food too, so...) Ill bet the NIN blind's and Slow's and paralyzes better than you though. (I'm not knocking DRG's at all - I actually think they are very underrated and deserve more respect. Super Jump can have some creative uses. But I had to point this out because your post was kind of surreal)

Here are my observations from my own experiences in this game that relate to the diferent topics being discussed in this thread:

1. I've seen PLDs flawlessly tank "NIN tank only" mobs and I've seen NIN's flawlessly tank "PLD tank only" mobs. I literally have no preference. A NIN who isn't obsessed with evasion can hold hate as good as a PLD, and a PLD with proper understanding of gear stats and play can have 0 downtime like a NIN.

2. The elemental wheel is better for losing hate than gaining it. The cast time on elemental Ni spells is 1.5 seconds which is approximately the same as the delay on the average katana. Factor in dual weild delay reduction and the katana speed is much quicker per katana than one cast of elemental Ninjitsu. Now that wouldn't really matter so much if the ninjitsu did more damage per cast, but it doesn't. A full unresisted spell that I cast on a exp mob will hit for around 100 damage, but when you do the wheel you will be casting every element and they won't al be full unresisted. Some will even be heavily resisted. Using the wheel on a exp mob will give me damage from around 13-100 damage. Katana's on the otherhand vs. Exp mob do about 45-100 per hit with criticals in the 120-150 range. Keep in mind that NIN have very high dex and access to very good dex gear and also that we have the most critical hit% weapons available of any job. Most mele tend to get about 3-5% criticals from parses I've seen, but a high dex, high critical hit% NIN is well into the double digits. The monster does not hate you more for spending more gil, he will however hate you more for doing more damage.

3. Interesting fact for those who keep saying "NIN wasn't meant to tank" or "NIN is a good backup tank" :

Noruko Earring - rare/ex earring gained from solo ENM has an enchantment of +10 Enmity. (I point this out because if anyone thinks SE doesn't recognize NIN's as tanks then why do these items keep getting added?)

4. Last time I checked no Fuma Shuriken have ever been sold in the Jeuno AH on our sever.

5. I have absolutely No preference NIN or PLD in any situation - except of course if I'm the NIN or PLD ;) .

SE never ment NINs to be tanks when they were first added, but because of how expensive throwing weapons are, ppl tried them as tanks, and because of how popular it became, SE gave in and gave them more defensive gear, and a +1 or 2 Enmity Shruiken, now the earring.