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#277 Feb 29 2016 at 12:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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#278 Feb 29 2016 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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I think we just witnessed a field reporter lose his job.
#279 Feb 29 2016 at 6:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Democrats are already using the probable GOP nominee to campaign:

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#280 Feb 29 2016 at 7:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Seriously, 63% of all Americans believe Trump could win? I've given you guys too much credit over the years if that's the case.


Not sure what "could" win really means in this context though. Honestly though, I've been operating on the assumption that most of his support is coming from outside the traditional GOP voters. Which at least seemed to be supported by his own statement in the last debate about how he's "bringing people into the party". Which... Um.... Doesn't mean he's actually bringing people *into* the party so much as bringing people from outside the party into the primaries. Here's the thing though. If that's correct, then he should not do so well in primaries that are larger in number, closed, and held on the same day as the Dem primaries in the same state (although even that may not hold water given how, Sanders fanatics aside, Clinton is actually running more or less unopposed).

Polling indicates this isn't true though. I hope it is, but if I'm wrong, then his support isn't just some mirage effect from smallish states with lots of independent voters relative to the number of "regular" primary voters tipping the apple cart for the GOP, but an actual wave of anti-establishment voters, pissed off at both parties for the grid lock of the last 7 years, latching onto Trump, irrationally or not, as a means to "fix it". I've been watching in disbelief as he continues to say things that are ridiculously stupid, paper thin, and obviously just empty emotional rhetoric. Yet, he continues to poll high, and has improved over time.

Here's the thing. If I am wrong about this, then he will win the GOP nomination, and he does actually stand a strong chance of beating Clinton in the general. Because there's more or less no one in the race who isn't more representative of the establishment than Clinton. If Trumps BS is working so well against both Rubio and Cruz, both Tea Party candidates themselves, and among GOP voters who usually shy away from the truly nutty folks (we're not called "conservatives" for nothing), it's likely that he may do even better in the general. Not among the rank and file folks the Dems normally rely on as their voting poll, but among what may be a very large segment of independent voters, who may not care much at all about our normal right/left voting patterns, and will lean heavily in his direction. And if his wave of support is loud enough, and big enough, it's not going to matter what negatives are thrown at him.

I'm not voting for him, no matter what. My principles really do mean more to me than party loyalty, despite what some here may think. But if I were a liberal Democrat, I'd be a bit cautious laughing it up about Trump beating the more traditional GOP candidates in this race. Because if you think that means an easy victory in November, you might recall that this was the same assumption made in the GOP 6 months or so ago about Trump's chances. If he wins the nomination, and in late summer you guys are tearing your hair out wondering how on earth he could actually be polling so well against the clearly superior Clinton, I'll maybe refrain from laughing at you (maybe). But I'll have a nice big chug of scotch or something, and just hope the whole thing doesn't cause too much damage in the long run.

There's a saying about tigers and tails. I think it might apply here.
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#281 Feb 29 2016 at 7:12 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
If we had a small primary window (or a single day), Sanders would be out already. He didn't start raking in the campaign dollars until he proved viable in Iowa and New Hampshire. That's the benefit of the staggered primaries: allowing "smaller" candidates to build momentum by focusing in a few states at first.

That's because Sen. Sanders is just a weak candidate to begin with. The first two states were in his favor and he is still underwater, even with the momentum. So, a one day vote wouldn't mean that he would win, but that he would have had a better chance. That's why Sec. Clinton decisively winning Nevada and blowing him out in South Carolina were so important.

If Super Tuesday were to have happened after New Hampshire, I'm sure that he would have much more support going in than he does now. The point being that the more states that are voting at once, the less time there is to spin, recover from or create any momentum. People are more likely to vote for who they want and not who they think will win. In those cases, the underdog stands a better a chance. It doesn't guarantee a win, but gives them better footing.
#282 Feb 29 2016 at 7:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
If Super Tuesday were to have happened after New Hampshire, I'm sure that he would have much more support going in than he does now.

Wait, what? New Hampshire was weeks ago. Super Tuesday is tomorrow.

Do you mean immediately after? I'm not giving you shit, I'm just trying to get your point.

Edited, Feb 29th 2016 7:14pm by Jophiel
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#283 Feb 29 2016 at 7:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
But if I were a liberal Democrat, I'd be a bit cautious laughing it up about Trump beating the more traditional GOP candidates in this race. Because if you think that means an easy victory in November, you might recall that this was the same assumption made in the GOP 6 months or so ago about Trump's chances. If he wins the nomination, and in late summer you guys are tearing your hair out wondering how on earth he could actually be polling so well against the clearly superior Clinton, I'll maybe refrain from laughing at you (maybe). But I'll have a nice big chug of scotch or something, and just hope the whole thing doesn't cause too much damage in the long run.

I'm not excited about Trump winning. I find it fascinating from a political standpoint -- he's tearing down a lot of what the old rules and assumptions were -- but I'd certainly rather that he wasn't president (although, after the last week I'm not sure Rubio or Cruz would be any better). However, part of Trump's rise was the fact that the GOP laughed him off and did nothing to slow it. Sources in the Cruz and Rubio campaigns admit that they just started collecting opposition on Trump a few weeks ago, for a candidate that declared in June 2015. SuperPACs that wanted to go after him were told to stand down by big money donors who (a) didn't want Trump's ire directed at them and (b) stopped trusting these PAC guys after their disastrous 2012 results and the Jeb! fiasco. The GOP primary candidates have spent the last couple months wrestling with each other to be the alternative to Trump while no one has taken Trump on directly until a few days ago with Rubio's antics that make the primary look less like a nomination contest for leader of the free world and more like two 11 year olds insulting each others moms over Xbox.

In contrast, Clinton is already going against Trump. They've reportedly been collecting opposition on him since he declared and it'll be all cannons on him, not this dicking around to see who gets to be the "establishment lane" and who gets the "evangelical lane". Trump got to where he is because the GOP was complacent about him, if he won the general it wouldn't be because Clinton did the same.
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#284 Mar 01 2016 at 5:35 AM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If Super Tuesday were to have happened after New Hampshire, I'm sure that he would have much more support going in than he does now.

Wait, what? New Hampshire was weeks ago. Super Tuesday is tomorrow.

Do you mean immediately after? I'm not giving you shit, I'm just trying to get your point.

Edited, Feb 29th 2016 7:14pm by Jophiel


Yes, I meant immediately after. I apologize for not clarifying, but given that NH was weeks ago, I thought it would be inferred.
#285 Mar 01 2016 at 7:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wouldn't have mattered. In fact, it would have been worse for Sanders since he wouldn't have been able to fund raise off his victory. The state by state polls in the Super Tuesday primaries didn't really move in that time so Clinton would still do very well. It would actually have just blunted Sanders' "momentum" rather than letting him get millions of dollars off his win if he won in NH and was crushed in ten other states the next day.
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#286 Mar 01 2016 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
My principles really do mean more to me than party loyalty
The good news is you don't need to compromise them. Bill Watterson is truly a fount of wisdom.
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#287 Mar 01 2016 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
In contrast, Clinton is already going against Trump. They've reportedly been collecting opposition on him since he declared and it'll be all cannons on him, not this dicking around to see who gets to be the "establishment lane" and who gets the "evangelical lane". Trump got to where he is because the GOP was complacent about him, if he won the general it wouldn't be because Clinton did the same.
With Dem numbers down this year(30% fewer voters turning out compared to 2008) and Rep numbers up(Nevada had more people show up to vote for Trump alone than total in 2012), she could have her work cut out for her. Or they could be artifacts of the election years we're comparing them to(certainly at least partially the case).

Beyond that, I suspect Trump's largest appeal is among the "sick and tired of the usual politics" crowd, which I don't think Hillary is going to sway. He's likely worse than usual, but that doesn't matter. He's different.
#288 Mar 01 2016 at 9:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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She could but, again, it won't be for lack of effort which was a big part of the GOP's problem. It's tough to compare numbers (the GOP was bemoaning lack of enthusiasm in 2012; Clinton seems a lock this year lowering voter interest) but I won't deny that Trump is getting big crowds and sizable vote tallies.
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#289 Mar 01 2016 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
She could but, again, it won't be for lack of effort which was a big part of the GOP's problem.
Well, that and putting nine or so meatloafs up as candidates. Which does seem to be the Dem's strategy too. Smiley: tongue


Edited, Mar 1st 2016 8:32am by Poldaran
#290 Mar 01 2016 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
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Poldaran wrote:
Well, that and putting nine or so meatloafs up as candidates.
Hey, you leave Robert Paulsen alone.
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#291 Mar 01 2016 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
She could but, again, it won't be for lack of effort which was a big part of the GOP's problem.
Well, that and putting nine or so meatloafs up as candidates. Which does seem to be the Dem's strategy too. Smiley: tongue

Huh? The 2016 Democratic field realistically had three candidates: Clinton, Sanders and O'Malley. The GOP field had 16.
The 2012 GOP field going into Iowa was Romney, Santorum, Cain, Gingrich, Bachmann, Huckabee and Perry. Heck, I might be forgetting someone.
The 2008 Democratic field was Obama, Clinton & Edwards by the time Iowa came around.

Democrats, for better or worse, have been running slimmer fields. But this year's GOP field was exceptionally bloated with everyone wanting to run against Obama's record and Clinton's candidacy for the open seat.
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#292 Mar 01 2016 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
The 2016 Democratic field realistically had three candidates: Clinton, Sanders and O'Malley.
Your definition of realistic is loosening.
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#293 Mar 01 2016 at 1:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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You guys are letting me down, where's the ongoing speculation, the live tweeting, the exit polls? Do those not exist for a primary? I come to ZAM to be entertained.
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#294 Mar 01 2016 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
She could but, again, it won't be for lack of effort which was a big part of the GOP's problem.
Well, that and putting nine or so meatloafs up as candidates. Which does seem to be the Dem's strategy too. Smiley: tongue

Huh? The 2016 Democratic field realistically had three candidates: Clinton, Sanders and O'Malley. The GOP field had 16.
The 2012 GOP field going into Iowa was Romney, Santorum, Cain, Gingrich, Bachmann, Huckabee and Perry. Heck, I might be forgetting someone.
The 2008 Democratic field was Obama, Clinton & Edwards by the time Iowa came around.

Democrats, for better or worse, have been running slimmer fields. But this year's GOP field was exceptionally bloated with everyone wanting to run against Obama's record and Clinton's candidacy for the open seat.
The "nine meatloafs" comment was a crack about how bland and boring most of their candidates were. Thus, I wasn't saying that the Dems put out the same quantity of candidates, just the same quality. Mostly, I was just calling Hillary a meatloaf. Smiley: tongue
#295 Mar 01 2016 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
I come to ZAM to be entertained.
The Dem side is pretty boring, and the GOP side is auditions for the 2016 remake of Duck Soup.
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#296 Mar 01 2016 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm actually caught up in stuff at work today so I'm forced to satisfy my primary day excitement with Twitter.

Nice thing about today is most primary states are Eastern or Central time zones so it shouldn't be that late of a night.
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#297 Mar 01 2016 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gossip for Xsarus: Marco Rubio held a meeting with donors earlier (today?) where he again pitched the idea that he could win at a brokered convention without a majority of delegates. Donors were less than impressed with Rubio's lowering of the bar yet again and there's doubt that he'd even make it onto the second round of balloting.
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#298 Mar 01 2016 at 6:11 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Wouldn't have mattered. In fact, it would have been worse for Sanders since he wouldn't have been able to fund raise off his victory. The state by state polls in the Super Tuesday primaries didn't really move in that time so Clinton would still do very well. It would actually have just blunted Sanders' "momentum" rather than letting him get millions of dollars off his win if he won in NH and was crushed in ten other states the next day.


Not at all, because the Nevada and South Carolina wins stopped the gained momentum, which is the point. What did he do with his funded money? Campaign in the low delegated states that he was close in polling.
#299 Mar 01 2016 at 6:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Campaigned in Massachusetts and Colorado, really. He also has more cash on hand than most candidates for the Feb 15th elections which are in more favorable states.

More to the point, winning in New Hampshire didn't help him win Nevada a few days later. What makes you think it would have helped him win 11+ other states?
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#300 Mar 01 2016 at 6:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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More importantly, I can't find a decent county results map for Virginia Smiley: mad
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#301 Mar 01 2016 at 6:39 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Campaigned in Massachusetts and Colorado, really. He also has more cash on hand than most candidates for the Feb 15th elections which are in more favorable states.

More to the point, winning in New Hampshire didn't help him win Nevada a few days later. What makes you think it would have helped him win 11+ other states?


Sen. Sanders appeals to a very small demographic that doesn't allow him to win in a general sense. The last thing that you want is a string of losses followed by 11 states in one day. For a better example, imagine if Super Tuesday happened after Ted Cruz winning Iowa. That's why Rubio is having a hard time. Even if he were to win Florida, it would be after losing 16ish states. That's a major difference than if Florida were first.


The more states that one loses (which is completely irrelevant in the game of delegates), the less support you have . Mathematically, you could lose a number of states and still win the nomination in delegates, but people see winners and losers, which causes good candidates to drop out.
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